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Seriously people, there are plenty of liberal churches that allow women to be pastors, elders and deacons. Heck, my Southern Baptist church even allows women to vote on church matters. Find one that fits you and start serving.
Oh my goodness. They "even" allow women to vote. How wildly liberal and tolerant of them. They "allow " the women to do something the men do!
Anyhoo...getting over that nugget of information from the Southern Baptists...
Serve a church?
No thanks. I'd rather serve God and serve the poor, the sick, the lonely, the disenfranchised, the oppressed.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 10-31-2016 at 03:12 PM..
Reason: Clarity...
You seem hung up on this. Why does it matter if her first link did not specifically address women voting?
Why does it matter? Because the answer Pleroo originally links to contains the wording:
"Because your question addresses a matter of adiaphoron—a specific subject matter on which the Bible is silent—our congregations have varying practices in this regard."
and that above is not applicable to
the Biblical teaching of 'women matter to God'
why women are refrained from voting
Holding to Biblical teachings (which includes why women are refrained from voting)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzSnorlax
1) Does the lack of mention of it in an article somehow change the church's policy?
2)Do they or do they not allow women to vote on church issues?
Your question and my subsequent reply must (not optional) include the premise of the edited out paragraph
"Because your question addresses a matter of adiaphoron—a specific subject matter on which the Bible is silent—our congregations have varying practices in this regard."
1A) Are you referencing the newspaper article Pleroo linked to?
-------If so then no. They can misrepresent all they want.
1B) Are you referencing the first linked answer from the WELS theologian?
------- Yes because it changes the Biblical teaching that the WELS holds to.
2A) We hold to the Biblical teaching which explains why women are refrained from doing so
.... which I doubt if that matters to those who
openly reject mock the Bible
or the thinly veiled mocking gibberish of ' we don't mock the Bible just your interpretation'.
Last edited by twin.spin; 10-31-2016 at 03:30 PM..
Reason: clarity
Why does it matter? Because the answer Pleroo originally links to contains the wording:[indent][color=Navy][i]"Because your question addresses a matter of adiaphoron—a specific subject matter on which the Bible is silent—our congregations have varying practices in this regard."
Yes, which is why I said, when I originally quoted the article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Some of the churches won't even allow a woman to attend, much less speak or vote at voter's meetings, it seems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spin
2A) We hold to the Biblical teaching which explains why women are refrained from doing so
So yes, women are "refrained from" voting in every congregation in your church body.
And some of the WELS congregations also do not allow women to speak at their voter's meetings, and some will not even allow women to attend. Which is what I've said all along. Thank you for finally confirming it.
Women matter to your church body, but they are denied a voice.
Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?”
2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran. 3 ‘Leave your country and your people,’ God said, ‘and go to the land I will show you.’[a]
4 “So he left the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Harran. After the death of his father, God sent him to this land where you are now living. 5 He gave him no inheritance here, not even enough ground to set his foot on. But God promised him that he and his descendants after him would possess the land, even though at that time Abraham had no child. 6 God spoke to him in this way: ‘For four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated. 7 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves,’ God said, ‘and afterward they will come out of that country and worship me in this place.’[b] 8 Then he gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision. And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him eight days after his birth. Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs.
9 “Because the patriarchs were jealous of Joseph, they sold him as a slave into Egypt. But God was with him 10 and rescued him from all his troubles. He gave Joseph wisdom and enabled him to gain the goodwill of Pharaoh king of Egypt. So Pharaoh made him ruler over Egypt and all his palace.
11 “Then a famine struck all Egypt and Canaan, bringing great suffering, and our ancestors could not find food. 12 When Jacob heard that there was grain in Egypt, he sent our forefathers on their first visit. 13 On their second visit, Joseph told his brothers who he was, and Pharaoh learned about Joseph’s family. 14 After this, Joseph sent for his father Jacob and his whole family, seventy-five in all. 15 Then Jacob went down to Egypt, where he and our ancestors died. 16 Their bodies were brought back to Shechem and placed in the tomb that Abraham had bought from the sons of Hamor at Shechem for a certain sum of money.
17 “As the time drew near for God to fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased. 18 Then ‘a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt.’[c] 19 He dealt treacherously with our people and oppressed our ancestors by forcing them to throw out their newborn babies so that they would die.
20 “At that time Moses was born, and he was no ordinary child.[d] For three months he was cared for by his family. 21 When he was placed outside, Pharaoh’s daughter took him and brought him up as her own son. 22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.
23 “When Moses was forty years old, he decided to visit his own people, the Israelites. 24 He saw one of them being mistreated by an Egyptian, so he went to his defense and avenged him by killing the Egyptian. 25 Moses thought that his own people would realize that God was using him to rescue them, but they did not. 26 The next day Moses came upon two Israelites who were fighting. He tried to reconcile them by saying, ‘Men, you are brothers; why do you want to hurt each other?’
27 “But the man who was mistreating the other pushed Moses aside and said, ‘Who made you ruler and judge over us? 28 Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian yesterday?’[e] 29 When Moses heard this, he fled to Midian, where he settled as a foreigner and had two sons.
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say: 32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’[f] Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’[g]
35 “This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.
37 “This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’[h] 38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. 40 They told Aaron, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don’t know what has happened to him!’[i] 41 That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made. 42 But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets:
“‘Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
forty years in the wilderness, people of Israel?
43 You have taken up the tabernacle of Molek
and the star of your god Rephan,
the idols you made to worship.
Therefore I will send you into exile’[j] beyond Babylon.
44 “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen. 45 After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David, 46 who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.[k] 47 But it was Solomon who built a house for him.
48 “However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:
49 “‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
50 Has not my hand made all these things?’[l]
51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”
The Stoning of Stephen
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
well that lowly table server and dish washer no doubt was a witness and served the apostles and all people by leading the way in more ways than one. but he was a servant to all and no one even knows who Mathias is . Stephen's profound deeds and his awesome witness to even serving the widows and the poor dinner will follow him forever as arguably the 13th or so Apostle .
you see man choses who he will and takes it how he wants and God choses who he will for his reason and his purposes. but no one rules in the next age unless they are a servant to all and learned that lesson well from the master himself . because men and in all their ways can not teach it.
that is why there will be at least 7 women saved for every man in the next age ( after the tribulation ) because the dishwasher has a better chance of learning the right lesson than the pastor does .
Why does it matter? Because the answer Pleroo originally links to contains the wording:"Because your question addresses a matter of adiaphoron—a specific subject matter on which the Bible is silent—our congregations have varying practices in this regard.".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Yes, which is why I said, when I originally quoted the article:
Originally Posted by PlerooSome of the churches won't even allow a woman to attend, much less speak or vote at voter's meetings, it seems.
Look, I'm tired of your falsehoods and half truths.
1) The answer in the original quoted link (post #13) has no such verbiage as:
"Some of the churches won't even allow a woman to attend"
... that is out-right false for no other intention other than to deceive.
Women do in fact attend voters meetings. From the original post quoted (post #13)
"...Our congregations apply the broad principles of the Scripture passages you referenced to twenty-first-century church structure, which is admittedly more complex than the structure of the first-century church. The applications that are implemented range from holding open forums where all members are invited to hear board and committee reports and ask questions, to enabling women to attend voters’ meetings
It does not say "some of the churches won't even allow a woman to attend" ... you are purposefully misleading.
-----------------------------------------------------------
2) "much less speak " ... just more out-right falsehoods.
Depending on the situation and attitudes, women do speak as the original quoted link (post #13) states:
A: "...Our congregations apply the broad principles of the Scripture passages you referenced to twenty-first-century church structure, which is admittedly more complex than the structure of the first-century church. The applications that are implemented range from holding open forums where all membersare invited to hear board and committee reports and ask questions,to enabling women to attend voters’ meetings—to observe the proceedings only or to speak. We do well to remember that while voting is an authoritative action, so may also be the debate leading up to a vote.* Christian men and women will want to live within their God-given roles in settings like these."
That situation is clarified by the *
We do well to remember that while voting is an authoritative action, so may also be the debate leading up to a vote.*
It is a lie to state "some churches" do while implying some do not.
They all hold to the greater governing principle which dictates the situation.
----------------------------------------
3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
So yes, women are "refrained from" voting in every congregation in your church body.
And some of the WELS congregations also do not allow women to speak at their voter's meetings, and some will not even allow women to attend. Which is what I've said all along. Thank you for finally confirming it.
Women matter to your church body, but they are denied a voice.
Yes women are "refrained from" voting ... not because of the slanderous lie that women don't matter.
It's because "Christian men and women will want to live within their God-given roles in settings like these."
Last edited by twin.spin; 10-31-2016 at 06:29 PM..
Look, I'm tired of your falsehoods and half truths.
1) The answer in the original quoted link (post #13) has no such verbiage as:[indent][font=Arial Narrow]"Some of the churches won't even allow a woman to attend"
I said *I* said that, not that the article had that "verbiage" in it. No falsehoods, no half truths, just a misunderstanding on your part. But yes, what I said IS a truthful synopsis of what the article said.
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