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Old 11-02-2016, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,664,323 times
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Like love and marriage, faith and works go together.

Christianity is not confined to believing or to "working." Men say that when they know they will do; Jesus says when they do they will know.

Yet if either believing or works arise out of other than love, they are but a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

Yet the LAW becomes the all in all for fundamentalists who constantly judge people based on how well they adhere to a set of rules that fundies pull from their idol, the Bible. Lip service to Jesus is all that is delivered, because several of those commenting on a number of threads constantly denigrate love as secondary to "following the rules."

But following the rules IS an effort at works.

The lesson for us is found in the story of Joseph who is a prototype of the Christian that Jesus wishes us to be.

When Joseph's brothers who had sold him into slavery came to Egypt begging food from the brother they did not recognize they were terrified when their brother revealed himself to them. But what did he say---

Quote:
Do not be afraid! Am I in the place of God? Even though you intended to do harm to me, God intended it for good, in order to preserve a numerous people, as he is doing today. So have no fear; I myslef will provide for you and your little ones.
Genesis 50:19-21 (my emphasis)

Did the brothers "work" or even "believe" in their brother? They knew they deserved punishment. To be sold into slavery would have seemed like mercy to them. But Joseph acted as God does toward His errant children.

The emphasis on sin by fundies is purely misspeak on their part. For Jesus taught us that we should consider our own sins to be logs in our eyes and the sins of others to be specs of dust. We are to consider our own sins to be logs in our eyes and the sins of others--ALL others--to be but specs of dust by comparison. THAT is living in love and the only "work" that Jesus expects of us. If we are performing that work--then it is evidence that we really do believe.

The love God wants from us towards others always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.(I Cor. 13:7). Fundies look for punishment for sin, yet even when the sin is against us our focus should be on how God can creatively use that "sin" to further His good purposes for our lives.

So believing and providing works are mutually supportive--arising each from the other for those who are founded in the kind of love that God expects from His followers. A love that submits ourselves as the brothers of Joseph---sinning against him (Jesus)--but finding the love God gives us when we merit none at all. THEN we are capable of love, because we have learned what we really are.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 11-02-2016 at 11:19 PM..
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Old 11-03-2016, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Thanks for your patience. I finally have the time to get to this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
So if our salvation is founded on Jesus Christ, and our acceptance of His sacrifice, how can you maintain that by far the most of humanity will be justified before God based on that?
I can maintain this because, as I already pointed out, this change of heart may not take place during mortality. As Dieter F. Uchtdorf, a prominent LDS leader once pointed out, "The more we learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more we realize that endings here in mortality are not endings at all." And as another non-LDS theologian has put it, “To believe in God is to know that all the rules will be fair, and that there will be wonderful surprises.”

Billions upon billions of people have lived on this earth, and died without ever having had the opportunity to hear, understand, and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. (1) Hear, (2) Understand, (3) Accept. All three of those things are critical. You can't accept the gospel if you don't understand it, and you can't understand it if you haven't heard it. Had you been born somewhere in Mongolia in the 3rd century, somewhere in the jungles of Africa or South America in the 10th century or even in North Korea today, you would be among the people who have never received the blessings of knowing the truth about who Jesus Christ is and what He did for you. You would, as they say, "die in your sins" and be condemned to suffer for eternity. How loving, just or merciful is that!?! That's precisely what many Christians believe is going to happen to these people -- for having done nothing to deserve such punishment than having been born at the wrong time or in the wrong place.

Now, I'm going to tell you what Mormons believe. This is not going to be a comprehensive answer, but it's going to as complete as I can make it without completely overwhelming you.

Mormons do not believe that we go immediately after death to either Heaven or Hell. Neither did the first and second century Christians. (I can document that for you if you wish.) Instead, while our dead bodies lay in the ground, our spirits never die, but continue to exist as cognizant entities after death -- not in Heaven but in an intermediate realm. There they await the resurrection -- the time when they will give new life to the body they once resided in, life that will this time never end. The spirit is immortal and when the body is resurrected, it too will be immortal.

This intermediate realm between Heaven and Earth is known by the Latter-day Saints as the Spirit World. The Bible doesn't call it by name, but it does describe it. It speaks of it as having two distinct parts, one of which is called Paradise (or sometimes Abraham's bosom) and one of which is called Prison (or Hell). They are not actually physically distinct places, but rather states of mind. The spirits of those who had the opportunity to (1) hear, (2) understand and (3) accept the gospel of Jesus Christ while on earth will find themselves in a state of happiness and peace. They will be looking forward with great anticipation to the time when, as a complete soul (body and spirit), they will be granted entrance to Heaven. This will take place as part of the "first resurrection" spoken of in Revelation. The spirits of the unrepentant wicked, and those who did not have the opportunity to (1) hear, (2) understand and (3) accept the gospel of Jesus Christ while on earth, will find themselves in a state of torment -- not physical torment, because they are, after all, spirits without bodies -- but mental anguish and a dread for their upcoming judgment. They will be tormented by the memory of their wickedness and will know that they are deserving of, and can look forward to receiving, whatever punishment their particular sins warrant.

Various passages in 1 Peter speak of Christ's descent into Hell during the three days during which His body lay in the tomb. While He was there, He preached to those who were there. These were the "spirits in prison" mentioned in 1 Peter 3:19. They had lived prior to Jesus Christ and had no way of knowing that there was still hope of forgiveness for their sins. 1 Peter 4:6 tells us that "...for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." Jesus didn't spend three days in Hell to taunt the wicked, but to teach them, to provide them with a chance to repent and accept His atoning sacrifice. The Bible never even hints that the Spirit World no longer exists, and why would that be the case anyway? There is just as much need for it now as there was when the Savior visited it. There is probably even more of a need, due to the fact that many more people have lived and died in the years since Christ lived than before His day.

Jesus Christ does not reside in the Spirit World today. He is a glorified, resurrected Being and today sits on the right hand of His Father in Heaven. But his gospel is still being taught in the Spirit World. It is being taught by those in Paradise to those in Prison/Hell. And once one of these spirits has (1) heard, (2) understood and (3) accepted the gospel in the Spirit World, he is released from the torment he was previously experiencing and can spend the remainder of the time until the resurrection in a state of happiness and peace.

Quote:
Not most of humanity have repented from their sin and confess Jesus Christ as their Savior, and are born again of the Spirit, so how will they appear justified and righteous before the throne of God? How will they 'end up being saved'? The Bible says nothing about the possibility of repenting or accepting Christ after death, rather it tells us that it is appointed for men once to die, and then the judgment.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
I couldn't agree more. Each of us will be judged when we die, but that judgment is not the final judgment spoken of in Revelation. It is a preliminary judgment. God will not judge us unfairly. We will all stand before Him to be judged, having all had the opportunity to (1) hear, (2) understand and (3) accept the good news.

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Rather our Lord warns that many will go in at the wide gate and walk the broad way that leads to destruction, leads to hell. And few there be that find the narrow way that leads to life. Yet what you are saying is "few there be that don't eventually find eternal life". And that is just directly contradicting the Words of our Lord Himself.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I've already covered this in my prior post, so I won't go into it again.

Quote:
The passage you mentioned before, a couple of verses later in Matthew 7:21 also confirms this actually, many will say unto Me Lord, Lord.. but He will tell them to go away.

Matthew 7:23-24 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Again, the works weren't the issue here, they thought they had done quite wonderful works actually. But the issue was, like the majority of humanity, they had not a true relationship with Jesus Christ. They did not know Him.
That is absolutely right. They believed in Him but their belief hadn't changed the way they lived.

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Sadly Mormonism has salvation backwards...
No, sadly you do.

Quote:
...you say pretty much everyone is saved.
And you say pretty much everyone is damned. You must believe God to be terribly unloving, to condemn billions of His children to eternal torment, regardless of how they lived or what choice they would have made had the circumstances of their lives been different. I hope you thank Him every day that you were born in a country and at a time when you were privileged to be a Christian, because had you been born in a different time or in a different place, you would more than likely have ended up being part of God's eternal supply of firewood yourself. And nothing you could do would change a think.

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And sad to say that is one of the signs of demonic origins...
I don't know whether to respond to this un-Christian insult with another un-Chrtistian insult, but I think I'll just chalk it up to you not knowing any better.

Quote:
...Satan doesn't want us to worry much about our salvation or that of others, so he will make it seem almost an automatic given that we are saved or still can be saved after this life. Well if that's pretty much a given, the only thing that seems to matter is our "exaltation" in the afterlife. It's nothing short of a lie.
This life is definitely the time to prepare to meet God. Mormonism teaches that unequivocally. But the fact remains, that not everyone will have that opportunity. Furthermore, not even all believers will understand the scriptures in exactly the same way. I am so grateful that I believe God to be 100% merciful and forgiving, giving us every conceivably opportunity to accept His Son's Atonement on our behalf. I don't have to agonize over the possibility that you may end up burning in Hell, because I don't think that's going to happen. You seem to be sincere, if not overbearing and insulting at times, and I believe you want to believe what is true every bit as much as the next person. If I can look at you and understand that you have a good heart and love God (being the flawed person that I am), I am sure that God, in his wisdom and goodness, will be able to see into your heart a billion times more than I could ever hope to. And yes, what matters to us is exaltation. Why should we settle for less than what God truly wants for us? Surely that would be disappointing to Him.

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But the Bible says most of the people will be lost in eternal judgment and only a few will find the way to life through the Lord Jesus Christ. Those few will still be a great multitude which no man could number, but they are few compared to the total population of humanity over all the centuries.
Again, I believe my prior post explains my beliefs on this.

Quote:
I think as it is possible to reconcile apparent contradictions, which are not actual contradictions. So it is possible that apparent agreement on some issues, is actually contradicting in the root of the matters of faith. Which I am convinced is very much the case in our discussion, and which is becoming increasingly more clear.
Or maybe you would just prefer to ignore the common ground and pretend that it doesn't even exist.

Quote:
I'll try to just respond bit by bit as we go, sorry if I can't always reply to all of the content of your posts. And I hope you won't forget my views on Mormonism have nothing to do with you personally and it's in no way my intention to offend you, but rather to show you the truth from the Scriptures as God has revealed them to me through His Spirit and I do this with prayer of course so it might not be my own words and wisdom but truly Gods.
Sure, I understand that it isn't personal. My belief in a truly loving God who wants all of His children to return to His presence and who has provided a way for this to happen (that contradicts nothing the Bible has to say on the subject, which isn't much) is founded on lies and has a demonic source. I'm sure that isn't intended to be offensive. That's just where you are in your spiritual walk right now.

Quote:
God bless you
Thank you, but as I have said before, He has already blessed me immeasurably. And I am looking forward to an eternity of even greater blessings.

Last edited by Katzpur; 11-03-2016 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:11 PM
 
63,470 posts, read 39,739,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Like love and marriage, faith and works go together.
Christianity is not confined to believing or to "working." Men say that when they know they will do; Jesus says when they do they will know.
Yet if either believing or works arise out of other than love, they are but a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
Yet the LAW becomes the all in all for fundamentalists who constantly judge people based on how well they adhere to a set of rules that fundies pull from their idol, the Bible. Lip service to Jesus is all that is delivered, because several of those commenting on a number of threads constantly denigrate love as secondary to "following the rules."
But following the rules IS an effort at works.
The lesson for us is found in the story of Joseph who is a prototype of the Christian that Jesus wishes us to be.
When Joseph's brothers who had sold him into slavery came to Egypt begging food from the brother they did not recognize they were terrified when their brother revealed himself to them. But what did he say---
Genesis 50:19-21 (my emphasis)
Did the brothers "work" or even "believe" in their brother? They knew they deserved punishment. To be sold into slavery would have seemed like mercy to them. But Joseph acted as God does toward His errant children.
The emphasis on sin by fundies is purely misspeak on their part. For Jesus taught us that we should consider our own sins to be logs in our eyes and the sins of others to be specs of dust. We are to consider our own sins to be logs in our eyes and the sins of others--ALL others--to be but specs of dust by comparison. THAT is living in love and the only "work" that Jesus expects of us. If we are performing that work--then it is evidence that we really do believe.
The love God wants from us towards others always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.(I Cor. 13:7). Fundies look for punishment for sin, yet even when the sin is against us our focus should be on how God can creatively use that "sin" to further His good purposes for our lives.
So believing and providing works are mutually supportive--arising each from the other for those who are founded in the kind of love that God expects from His followers. A love that submits ourselves as the brothers of Joseph---sinning against him (Jesus)--but finding the love God gives us when we merit none at all. THEN we are capable of love, because we have learned what we really are.
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Old 11-04-2016, 07:51 AM
 
4,217 posts, read 2,769,674 times
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Here we are again with people who refuse to abide in God's word and use it but yet say they know His word. Not possible.

Those who use God's word and walk in it love God and neighbor while doing the work of God and walking in His presence.
Those who do not walk in God's word do not and cannot love God or neighbor.

It is written in the prophets;

"Speak the truth to one another, judge righteously and let honesty and peace be at your gates."

"Let the man who has my word speak my word and speak the truth,"

"This is the covenant I have made with them. My spirit which is upon you and my words which I have put into your mouth shall never leave your mouth nor the mouths of your children nor the mouths of your children's children from now on and forever."
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Old 11-04-2016, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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You really need to either learn how the quote function works, omega, or -- if you are sure you understand how it works -- start proof-reading your posts. Your last post was all over the place. I couldn't tell who said what, let alone who you agreed with and who you didn't agree with. Since your post is just a jumbled mess, I'm going to withhold comment.
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Old 11-04-2016, 09:07 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
You really need to either learn how the quote function works, omega, or -- if you are sure you understand how it works -- start proof-reading your posts. Your last post was all over the place. I couldn't tell who said what, let alone who you agreed with and who you didn't agree with. Since your post is just a jumbled mess, I'm going to withhold comment.
Sadly, I couldn't figure out how to fix it either, so it is deleted to avoid future confusion about who said what.

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Old 11-04-2016, 02:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Thanks for your patience. I finally have the time to get to this post.

Billions upon billions of people have lived on this earth, and died without ever having had the opportunity to hear, understand, and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. (1) Hear, (2) Understand, (3) Accept. All three of those things are critical. You can't accept the gospel if you don't understand it, and you can't understand it if you haven't heard it. Had you been born somewhere in Mongolia in the 3rd century, somewhere in the jungles of Africa or South America in the 10th century or even in North Korea today, you would be among the people who have never received the blessings of knowing the truth about who Jesus Christ is and what He did for you. You would, as they say, "die in your sins" and be condemned to suffer for eternity. How loving, just or merciful is that!?! That's precisely what many Christians believe is going to happen to these people -- for having done nothing to deserve such punishment than having been born at the wrong time or in the wrong place.
Wrong, you forget that we aren't helpless victims that fall into the hands of an evil dictator. We are responsible for our sins and we are guilty criminals that will stand before a Righteous and Holy Judge. We are still as guilty for the sins we have committed, whether we heard the Gospel or not. Now it is by grace that I am saved, it is by grace that I found a little booklet by CH Spurgeon that God used to changed my life. If I was getting what I deserved, I would be lost forever, but God isn't obliged to give or offer His grace to everyone.

And it's not our task to do alot of wishful thinking about opportunities of salvation for those that never heard or could hear the Gospel. That has no foundation in Scripture. Romans 9 is a beautiful example of Gods Sovereign election of whom He will give His mercy.

Romans 9:13-24 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Quote:
Now, I'm going to tell you what Mormons believe. This is not going to be a comprehensive answer, but it's going to as complete as I can make it without completely overwhelming you.
Okay nice story, but what about the Bible? It seems like you mostly ignored the verses that I quoted to you, while to me the Scriptures are thé most important subject of authority. I hope to you aswell?

What about those texts that I mentioned about the "few" that will enter in through the narrow gate, and the many that will say "Lord, Lord.."? What about this text in Luke 13, our Lord is asked straight up about whether there will be "few" saved and confirms many will seek to enter in but won't be able! Seems like you disagree with the Lord Himself.

Luke 13:23-24 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

I am not interested in human philosophy to be honest, I am interested in what the Bible says on the topic of salvation. The Lord Jesus, when the tower of Siloam fell on the eighteen, warned the people that they would likewise "perish" unless they repented in this life!

Ofcourse it was an obvious example of death being the cause of perishing eternally, the Lord warns them because there are no second chances!

Luke 13:2-5 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, there is clearly a seperation between heaven and hell straight after death. Scripture is just so obvious that it is almost lunacy in my eyes to believe otherwise, no matter what "prophet" said something, the Bible should be your authority. Just try to read it really slowly, our Lord gave that parable for a reason, because it agrees with spiritual reality.

It is true that our spirits come in a temporal "prison" or "abraham's bosom/heaven" as you described after which comes the ressurection - our spirits rejoin our bodies - and the judgment. But satan always uses a bit of truth to mix his best deceptions, because what does not agree with spiritual reality is we will still have the chance to repent or accept Jesus, there was no hope for this man and he was simply awaiting final execution in the lake of fire (Rev.20:15, Rev. 21:8) - no chance of redemption. Why else would he be so bothered about his brothers?

Luke 16:22-31 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I know my words cannot convince you, and you seem well-trained in extensive discussions which I hope are not just a practise in defense of your own Mormon doctrines. I am sure you are very capable of defending your denomination quite well. But I hope you are also open to sincerely questioning whether they are right and true or not, and changing your mind, based on evidence from the Bible. Biblical truth should change our minds and opinions or discussing it is a pointless excercise to begin with. I honestly wonder how open you are to the plain testimony of Scripture contradicting your beliefs?

I simply pray the Scriptures will open your eyes to see that this life is really the only opportunity for every human being on this planet to repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ. If you die in your sins, without having been covered by the Righteousness and Blood of Jesus Christ, then you cannot come where He is. He said so Himself:

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Last edited by Chanokh; 11-04-2016 at 02:42 PM..
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Old 11-04-2016, 02:58 PM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
John 6

28 They asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” 29*Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
MICAH 6:8

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Some scribe got it wrong?
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Old 11-04-2016, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
Wrong, you forget that we aren't helpless victims that fall into the hands of an evil dictator. We are responsible for our sins and we are guilty criminals that will stand before a Righteous and Holy Judge. We are still as guilty for the sins we have committed, whether we heard the Gospel or not.
We had no choice as to when and where we were born. In other words, you and I were both born into Christian cultures. That gives us a considerable edge over those souls who were not. I'm afraid that it quite simply isn't possible to believe something you've never been taught, or to have faith in someone who never knew existed.

Quote:
Now it is by grace that I am saved, it is by grace that I found a little booklet by CH Spurgeon that God used to changed my life. If I was getting what I deserved, I would be lost forever, but God isn't obliged to give or offer His grace to everyone.
That's right! He isn't obliged to offer His grace to everyone, but He intends to do so anyway.

Quote:
And it's not our task to do a lot of wishful thinking about opportunities of salvation for those that never heard or could hear the Gospel. That has no foundation in Scripture.
There's no wishful thinking on my part. There is only the use of my good common sense (which God gave me) coupled with revelation to His chosen servants, and the witness of the Holy Ghost to my mind and heart.

Quote:
Romans 9 is a beautiful example of Gods Sovereign election of whom He will give His mercy.

Romans 9:13-24 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
So, you are saying God's mercy is simply arbitrary. He decreed that some of His children wouldn't even have a chance to believe in His Son's gospel, and then He condemns them for something that they had no control over. Aren't you glad you're someone He arbitrarily decided to save instead of being someone he arbitrarily decided to condemn?

Quote:
Okay nice story, but what about the Bible? It seems like you mostly ignored the verses that I quoted to you, while to me the Scriptures are thé most important subject of authority. I hope to you as well?
I'm sorry. I am not aware of any verses I ignored. Perhaps you can post them one by one and I can tell you how I understand them.

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What about those texts that I mentioned about the "few" that will enter in through the narrow gate, and the many that will say "Lord, Lord.."? What about this text in Luke 13, our Lord is asked straight up about whether there will be "few" saved and confirms many will seek to enter in but won't be able! Seems like you disagree with the Lord Himself.
You clearly didn't read my post #17. I already addressed that question.

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Luke 13:23-24 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
I believe this passage is referring to sanctification or exaltation as opposed to justification. Again, read what I said previously. I'm not going to repeat it.

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I am not interested in human philosophy to be honest, I am interested in what the Bible says on the topic of salvation. The Lord Jesus, when the tower of Siloam fell on the eighteen, warned the people that they would likewise "perish" unless they repented in this life!

Ofcourse it was an obvious example of death being the cause of perishing eternally, the Lord warns them because there are no second chances!

Luke 13:2-5 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Repentance is absolutely critical. I didn't catch the verse that says, "There are no second chances." I guess I just believe God is more loving and merciful than you do. It is virtually impossible for any of us to know the heart of anyone else. You may be absolutely sure that God only gives us one chance, but I believe He gives us "seventy times seven."

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In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, there is clearly a seperation between heaven and hell straight after death. Scripture is just so obvious that it is almost lunacy in my eyes to believe otherwise, no matter what "prophet" said something, the Bible should be your authority. Just try to read it really slowly, our Lord gave that parable for a reason, because it agrees with spiritual reality.
Thanks for yet another insult -- that my understanding is "lunacy." Furthermore, I don't care who or what you think should be my authority. God is my authority, and I have found no reason to assume that He decided He was going to stop talking once "the Bible" had been compiled. And please don't tell me how s-l-o-w-l-y I need to read. I am quite capable of setting my own pace.

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It is true that our spirits come in a temporal "prison" or "abraham's bosom/heaven" as you described after which comes the ressurection - our spirits rejoin our bodies - and the judgment. But satan always uses a bit of truth to mix his best deceptions, because what does not agree with spiritual reality is we will still have the chance to repent or accept Jesus, there was no hope for this man and he was simply awaiting final execution in the lake of fire (Rev.20:15, Rev. 21:8) - no chance of redemption. Why else would he be so bothered about his brothers?

Luke 16:22-31 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Until Jesus Christ himself bridged the gulf between Paradise and the Spirit Prison, this was the case. Fortunately, He made it possible for the dead who didn't know Him during their mortal lives to repent.

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I know my words cannot convince you...
You're right about that, and I know mine can't convince you either. Hopefully, pretty soon you will just come to realize, as I have, that there are times when it simply makes sense for two people to agree to disagree, and part on good terms. I'm ready to do that whenever you are.

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...and you seem well-trained in extensive discussions which I hope are not just a practice in defense of your own Mormon doctrines.
What is this supposed to mean? (It sounds like you can't quite decide whether you want to pay me a compliment or not. ) I haven't received any training whatsoever in "extensive discussions." But I do know my religion backwards and forwards, and I know how the Bible supports my beliefs. Why in the world should I not try to defend them?

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I am sure you are very capable of defending your denomination quite well. But I hope you are also open to sincerely questioning whether they are right and true or not, and changing your mind, based on evidence from the Bible. Biblical truth should change our minds and opinions or discussing it is a pointless exercise to begin with. I honestly wonder how open you are to the plain testimony of Scripture contradicting your beliefs?
It's funny that you should ask, because I was wondering exactly the same thing about you.

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I simply pray the Scriptures will open your eyes to see that this life is really the only opportunity for every human being on this planet to repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ. If you die in your sins, without having been covered by the Righteousness and Blood of Jesus Christ, then you cannot come where He is. He said so Himself:

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Again, thanks for your concern. Maybe we can hook up in Heaven and chat about it further. Would you like to move on to another topic, or should we continue beating this one into the ground?

Last edited by Katzpur; 11-04-2016 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 11-04-2016, 05:14 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Romans 9 is not referring to personal, individual justification/salvation. It is referring to God's corporate plan for Israel. When God says in 9:13 that He loved Jacob and hated Esau, He wasn't saying that He chose to save Jacob and leave Esau under condemnation. He was saying that He chose Jacob to be the descendent of Abraham through whom both the nation Israel and the Messiah would come. In other words, Jacob and Esau are not being focused on as individuals, but as nations. Both Jacob and Esau are the fathers of nations. If you'll refer to Genesis 25:21-23 you'll see that Jacob and Esau, both of whom have not yet been born, but are still in Rebekah's womb, are referred to as nations.

And considering the fact that God blessed Esau in many ways over the years, I believe that he was a believer and therefore eternally saved.

Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-04-2016 at 06:10 PM..
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