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Moderator cut: orphaned quote Romans 9 is not referring to personal, individual justification/salvation. It is referring to God's corporate plan for Israel. When God says in 9:13 that He loved Jacob and hated Esau, He wasn't saying that He chose to save Jacob and leave Esau under condemnation. He was saying that He chose Jacob to be the descendent of Abraham through whom both the nation Israel and the Messiah would come. In other words, Jacob and Esau are not being focused on as individuals, but as nations. Both Jacob and Esau are the fathers of nations. If you'll refer to Genesis 25:21-23 you'll see that Jacob and Esau, both of whom have not yet been born, but are still in Rebekah's womb, are referred to as nations.
And considering the fact that God blessed Esau in many ways over the years, I believe that he was a believer and therefore eternally saved.
But that violates the fundamentalist position of taking Scripture literally. Yet here you deviate from that idea because it is convenient for you.
What this argument shows is that there are a host of interpretations for many verses of Scripture.Moderator cut: delete
Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-11-2016 at 12:22 PM..
Reason: attack
Moderator cut: orphaned quote Romans 9 is not referring to personal, individual justification/salvation. It is referring to God's corporate plan for Israel. When God says in 9:13 that He loved Jacob and hated Esau, He wasn't saying that He chose to save Jacob and leave Esau under condemnation. He was saying that He chose Jacob to be the descendent of Abraham through whom both the nation Israel and the Messiah would come. In other words, Jacob and Esau are not being focused on as individuals, but as nations. Both Jacob and Esau are the fathers of nations. If you'll refer to Genesis 25:21-23 you'll see that Jacob and Esau, both of whom have not yet been born, but are still in Rebekah's womb, are referred to as nations.
And considering the fact that God blessed Esau in many ways over the years, I believe that he was a believer and therefore eternally saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
But that violates the fundamentalist position of taking Scripture literally. Yet here you deviate from that idea because it is convenient for you.
What this argument shows is that there are a host of interpretations for many verses of Scripture. But, of course, we understand that only YOUR interpretation deserves consideration!
Merit in obeying God but never any merit cause we ever perfect.
Merit in cross atonement to be saved.
Salvation in obeying God but never salvation cause we never perfect.
Salvation in cross atonement to be saved.
Look at Christianity like unemployment insurance.
Doing the right thing merits your ability to get grace with unemployment money.
You never get unemployment money cause you have a perfect life ever with no problems.
Grace with unemployment money is the insurance promise with conditions to be met.
Guarantees are guarantees but so are conditions actually conditions----John 8:32.
If people we're experts mastering this they would be spiritual giants in God----John 8:32.
If John 3:16 is a promise so is John 8:31 actually a condition.
If Romans 10:9 is a promise so is John 3:5 actually a condition.
A promise is not going to void out a condition but a condition can void out a promise.
This is how insurance works whether we talking unemployment insurance or Allstate Insurance.
John 3:16 is not going to void out John 8:31 but John 8:31 can void out John 3:16 from being lived out by people.
Romans 3:21 is not going to void out Matthew 5:17-20 but Matthew 5:17-20 can void out
Romans 3:21 from being lived out by people.
Salvation in Christianity is no different then unemployment insurance or Allstate Insurance.
The promise of a claim check is not going to void out what insurance doesn't cover.
What insurance doesn't cover will void out a promise.
Compare this to Romans 6:1.
The promise of heaven is not going to void out repentance to go to heaven.
Repentance to go to heaven can void out a promise to go to heaven even if your a cross atonement
believer to go to heaven.
Compare this to John 8:31.
The promise of heaven if you continue in God is not going to void out the outcome if you don't continue
in God.
If you don't continue in God to go to heaven then that can void out the promise to go to heaven even if your a cross atonement believer to go to heaven.
Hope to make noise to attract real bible believers together outside of this forum.
Amos 3:3 and John 8:31 and 2 Cor. 6 and John 17:21 and Psalms 133:1.
Katzpur I don't see much of a point in continuing this discussion. To me it seems that when the Bible contradicts the ideas of Mormonism, you put those ideas above the plain testimony of the Scriptures. Maybe when you recognise the authority of the Bible above any other source we can have a fruitful conversation.
Katzpur I don't see much of a point in continuing this discussion.
That's fine with me. We can talk or not.
Quote:
To me it seems that when the Bible contradicts the ideas of Mormonism, you put those ideas above the plain testimony of the Scriptures.
So far, this has never happened, so it's a moot point. Besides, "scripture" is defined as "any writing or book of a sacred or religious nature." Your "scriptures" are simply more limited than mine. You have one book which testifies of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Redeemer of mankind, whereas I have four.
Quote:
Maybe when you recognise the authority of the Bible above any other source we can have a fruitful conversation.
I will never recognize the authority of the Bible above the authority of God himself, so it appears as if we have nothing more to say to one another.
my apologies, certainly didn't mean to be...any of those things you said up there.
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