Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 12-03-2016, 11:22 AM
 
692 posts, read 375,560 times
Reputation: 55

Advertisements

https://www.ewtn.co.uk/news/holy-see...ir-cardinalate

It appears that four cardinals openly in disagreement with the Pope could eventually lose their jobs if they don't back off.

See attached article about the Dean of the Rota's oblique warning.

In fact, they could be excommunicated, defrocked, lose their benefice (all their job related privileges), and perhaps even their pension benefits if they don't back off.

However, I don't think they can be burned at the stake for their views. Yet, if within Vatican city which is a separate country from Italy, maybe they still can?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-03-2016, 11:41 AM
 
1,419 posts, read 1,048,739 times
Reputation: 219
Look at the expression on the face of the dean in the picture.. if he could burn them at the stake he probably would.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2016, 01:19 PM
 
692 posts, read 375,560 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh View Post
Look at the expression on the face of the dean in the picture.. if he could burn them at the stake he probably would.
RESPONSE: You actually are raising an interesting question. The papal encyclical Exsurge domine commands Catholics to believe, under the pain an an automatic excommunication, that it is the will of the Holy Spirit that heretics be burned at the stake. (The encyclical is on line).

Hence unless the Vatican City State Legal Code says otherwise (recall the Vatican is an independent country), it would not be surprising if it still authorizes burning at the stake for those are heretics (that is, disagree with the pope or the Church).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2016, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Sugarmill Woods , FL
6,234 posts, read 8,447,597 times
Reputation: 13809
As lessons from President Trump.... "YOU'RE FIRED"!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2016, 01:57 PM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,189,293 times
Reputation: 32581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotles child View Post
It appears that four cardinals openly in disagreement with the Pope could eventually lose their jobs if they don't back off.
Read the correction to the story. Last paragraph. The claim in the story was erroneous. Much ado about nothing. The Pope isn't firing anyone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2016, 02:08 PM
 
1,419 posts, read 1,048,739 times
Reputation: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotles child View Post
RESPONSE: You actually are raising an interesting question. The papal encyclical Exsurge domine commands Catholics to believe, under the pain an an automatic excommunication, that it is the will of the Holy Spirit that heretics be burned at the stake. (The encyclical is on line).

Hence unless the Vatican City State Legal Code says otherwise (recall the Vatican is an independent country), it would not be surprising if it still authorizes burning at the stake for those are heretics (that is, disagree with the pope or the Church).
I think Pope Francis would lose some of his popularity if he did that.. and I think he enjoys his popularity a little too much to put it in jeopardy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-03-2016, 04:46 PM
 
692 posts, read 375,560 times
Reputation: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Read the correction to the story. Last paragraph. The claim in the story was erroneous. Much ado about nothing. The Pope isn't firing anyone.
RESPONSE: Perhaps we should review this "retraction."

“Religión Confidencial...put words into the mouth of Mons. Pio Vito Pinto regarding the statement that the four cardinals who have written the Pope ‘could lose their cardinalate. The phrase was taken from an interview conducted by RC in which Mons. Vito responds in Italian and it is not correct. After reviewing the recording, it has been proven that what he affirms is that Pope Francis is not a Pope of other times in which those measures were used and that the Pope was not going to withdraw from them the Cardinalate dignity. The news is corrected, but we publish this rectification in case it was not enough.”

So such measures were taken in the past? But they aren't going to be used now? Lets wait and see.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-04-2016, 07:37 PM
 
1,292 posts, read 3,476,621 times
Reputation: 1430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotles child View Post
RESPONSE: You actually are raising an interesting question. The papal encyclical Exsurge domine commands Catholics to believe, under the pain an an automatic excommunication, that it is the will of the Holy Spirit that heretics be burned at the stake. (The encyclical is on line).

Hence unless the Vatican City State Legal Code says otherwise (recall the Vatican is an independent country), it would not be surprising if it still authorizes burning at the stake for those are heretics (that is, disagree with the pope or the Church).
Not really. It doesn't involve an infallible exercise of papal teaching.

According to Vatican I, which defined the doctrine, "The Roman pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra . . . possesses through the divine assistance promised to him in the person of blessed Peter, the infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed in defining the doctrine concerning faith or morals" (Pastor Aeternus 4). The passage in the ellipsis explains that the pope speaks ex cathedra "when, acting in the office of shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he defines, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church."

The key word is "defines." Defining something is not the same as stating, teaching, declaring, condemning, or what have you. The meaning of this term is explained in a relatio on Pastor Aeternus 4. (A relatio is an official interpretation of the text that is presented to the council bishops by a man called the relator so that the bishops will know the official sense of the text on which they are voting. Thus, what is said in a relatio is key to resolving queries about the meaning of a conciliar text.)

On July 16, 1870, Vincent Gasser, the relator for Pastor Aeternus 4, gave a relatio that explained "the word ‘defines’ signifies that the pope directly and conclusively pronounces his sentence about a doctrine which concerns matters of faith or morals and does so in such a way that each one of the faithful can be certain of the mind of the Apostolic See, of the mind of the Roman Pontiff; in such a way, indeed, that he or she knows for certain that such and such a doctrine is held to be heretical, proximate to heresy, certain or erroneous, etc., by the Roman Pontiff" (Gasser & O’Connor, The Gift of Infallibility [Boston: St. Paul Editions, 1986], 74 n.).

This means that, in order for him to define a doctrine to be held by the universal Church, the pope must express himself in such a way that the faithful can know with certitude that he holds a particular proposition to have a particular doctrinal note (de fide, certain, false, proximate to heresy, heretical, et cetera). The faithful are then required to regard it likewise. If the faithful cannot know from what the pope says that a particular proposition is to be regarded in a particular way, then the pope has not defined the matter for the universal Church and thus has not spoken infallibly.

If one examines the Exsurge Domine’s condemnation of Luther’s propositions, it is clear that they are being condemned in globo rather than in individuo. Pope Leo X wrote, "All and each of the preceding articles or errors, so to speak, as set before you, we condemn, disapprove, and entirely reject as respectively [1] heretical or [2] scandalous or [3] false or [4] offensive to pious ears or [5] seductive of simple minds and [6] in opposition to Catholic truth." The pontiff lists six different censures, but he doesn’t tell us which of these apply to which of the forty-one propositions.

When one looks at the Latin text of the sentence, this ambiguity is even more obvious. The various censures the pope names—from "heretical" to "offensive to pious ears"—are all joined by the conjunction aut. In ecclesiastical Latin the word aut tends to have the sense of an exclusive "or"—i.e., it’s this or that, not both. This makes it a slam-dunk that one cannot determine the kind of censure being applied to the individual propositions.

One cannot even infer that the pontiff’s mind was that all of the propositions were false. The censures "heretical" and "false" both imply falsity, but "scandalous," "offensive to pious ears," and "seductive of simple minds" do not.

Heresy is a term reserved for falsehoods that contradict points that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith. The more general term false is used to refer to erroneous propositions more generally (i.e., ones that do not have to be believed with divine and Catholic faith). But the next three named censures do not imply error. In fact, they may even presuppose the truth of a position.

Scandalous means "likely to cause scandal," but that does not automatically mean false. Sometimes things that are true lead to scandals. Offensive to pious ears means "phrased in an offensive manner" or "phrased in a manner repugnant to Catholic sensibilities." But again, that doesn’t automatically mean false. (In fact, this censure tends to be applied to propositions that are basically true but badly expressed.) Seductive of simple minds means "likely to be understood in a way that would lead the uneducated or inattentive to believe an error." This also does not mean automatically false.

One can speculate which censure might be applied to the proposition that using the death penalty for heresy is contrary to the will of the Spirit (a view Luther himself later repudiated). It seems to me that this proposition in that age would have been scandalous. Many people would have pointed to the examples in Scripture cited above and would have been scandalized by the proposition that it is never God’s will to use capital punishment for doctrinal matters.

However, we cannot infer from the pope’s statement that the proposition is anything more than scandalous. It could also be deserving of one or more of the other censures, but we can’t infer from what the pope said if that were true or which would be the case. Indeed, from what the pope said alone we can’t be sure that scandalous is what was in mind for that proposition.

Because we can't know that, Exsurge Domine does not infallibly define the theological status of this proposition or the others that it treats, meaning that it cannot be used to attack the doctrine of papal infallibility. One trying to do so needs to better understand papal infallibility, learn to parse ecclesiastical documents more carefully, or become aware of the meaning of theological censures.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top