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While the Father is the authority in the Godhead, I see no conflict with the co-equality of the three Persons of the Godhead in terms of their nature. I mean the Father doesn't possess a greater amount of eternality or immensity, nor is He more omnipotent than the Son or the Holy Spirit.
I agree. The Father is no more "godly" than the Son. Perfect is perfect, and no one "perfect" is more "perfect" than another "perfect." As I've explained my position on another forum I post on: We believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. As an example, a colonel holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. To most people's way of thinking, an ant, however, is an inferior being to a human.
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On the issue of the Father's authority, who knows but that maybe the three Persons of the Godhead agreed that one of them would assume the role of the Father and give the commands, while the others agreed to assume their respective roles in relation to their plan of creation and salvation. Just a thought.
I've got to disagree with you there. I believe the Father has always had the supreme role and that the Son and the Holy Ghost have always acknowledged that.
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Well, even though it was the Holy Spirit who caused Mary to conceive, He is never mentioned in Scripture as being the Father. When Jesus in His humanity prayed to God, He prayed to the Father, not to the Holy Spirit. In John 14:16 Jesus said He would ask the Father and that the Father would send another helper. That other helper was the Holy Spirit.
So from the standpoint of Jesus as God, I would say the Father/Son relationship between the First and Second Persons in the Godhead is an anthropomorphism, but from the standpoint of Jesus' humanity God is His actual Father as opposed to Joseph who was His adoptive father, and even though it was the Holy Spirit who caused Mary to conceive, it is the First Person of the Godhead who Jesus addresses as Father.
None of us really know how Jesus' conception took place. I believe that God the Father was just as literally the Father of Jesus as Mary was the mother of Jesus. Incidentally, people shouldn't read any more into that statement than what I have actually said. Mary was a virgin both after Jesus' conception and after His birth, so we don't know how the conception took place. We do know, however, as you pointed out, that it is God the Father that Jesus refers to in scripture as His father, and not the Holy Ghost. We also know that the Holy Ghost played an important part in the miracle of Jesus' conception.
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I'll be 63 in less than 3 weeks, so I'm no Spring chicken.
Wow! You are truly as old as dirt! At 68, however, I'm even older than dirt. I guess both of us have been around long enough to have learned a thing or two.
Okay, I'll give you the in-a-nutshell answer and then, in a separate post will give you the comprehensive answer.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Katz, I'm curious about your view on where we'll spend eternity. I mean, do you think we'll spend eternity in heaven in heaven, or in heaven on earth? That is, do you believe that Jesus will return to the earth and set up His Millennial kingdom, after which time He will destroy the present heavens and earth and create a new heavens and earth as in the Pre-Millennial position, or do you hold a different view?
We believe that in the future, our earth will be renewed and will receive a paradisiacal glory. This event will be associated with the millennial reign of Jesus Christ, and the earth will ultimately become "a new heaven and a new earth." This, we see to be in accordance with Isaiah 65:17, which says: "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."
I've got to disagree with you there. I believe the Father has always had the supreme role and that the Son and the Holy Ghost have always acknowledged that.
Yeah, it was just a ''what if'' sort of thought. I think what I suggested is possible, but it's not something I would strongly argue for.
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Wow! You are truly as old as dirt! At 68, however, I'm even older than dirt. I guess both of us have been around long enough to have learned a thing or two.
There's probably a 90 year old out there somewhere who's laughing at us right now.
Okay, the slightly longer version of where we will spend eternity (but still not the comprehensive one, as I tend to be overly wordy and don't want to bore people to death):
We believe that no one goes immediately to Heaven or to Hell after death, but to a sort of an intermediate realm known as the "Spirit World." It is there where we will reside in spirit form as we await the Millennium and our own resurrections. The Spirit World is not so much a place as a state of mind. For the righteous, the Spirit World will be akin to Paradise. It will be a state of peace and rest. For the unrepentant wicked, it will be very much a place of emotional anguish, a Hell or a Prison. These people will be tormented by guilt for their past deeds and will dread God's judgment which they know will ultimately take place.
Although we do not believe Jesus Christ will be physically present in this realm, we do believe that when He visited Hell during the three days His body lay in the tomb, He bridged the divide between Paradise and Hell and made it possible for those who had not heard His gospel during their lifetimes to both hear and accept it while in the Spirit World. We believe that there is no scriptural support for the idea that either Paradise or Hell/Prison have since ceased to exist, as billions even today find themselves in the same position as those Christ personally preached His gospel to did. It is our sincere conviction that those who are now in Paradise are continuing the work of spreading the gospel to those who continue to be tortured by their past, and that these individuals may still come to understand and accept Jesus Christ's Atonement on their behalf. When they do, they will be released from their Prison-like state and spend the remainder of their wait for the resurrection in the peace and rest of Paradise.
We do not believe that the final judgment will take place until literally every soul who has ever lived has had the opportunity to hear, understand, and either accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. God has repeatedly said that it is through Jesus Christ and Him alone that our sins may be remitted. We cannot hope to be saved without faith in Him. But God truly does want all of us back in His presence and is going to make sure that we have every opportunity to do what we need to do to live with Him again. Anyway, ultimately, we will all stand before God to be judged, the righteous at the beginning of the Millennium and the wicked at the end of the Millennium, and will then receive our reward. We believe that by the end of the Millennium, even most of the wicked will have come to recognize Jesus Christ as their Savior and will receive a portion of God's glory. We actually see very few as being judged as worthy of eternal punishment.
Lastly, we believe in three different degrees of heavenly glory, spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. This entire chapter is about what will happen to us at the resurrection. In Paul's words: "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." When you said earlier...
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Originally Posted by Mike555
I believe that the judgment seat of Christ which is for the purpose of determining the amount of rewards a believer will receive will take place not only before Jesus of course, but before the Father and before the angels. I also believe that the judgment seat of Christ for the church age believer will take place after the rapture of the church and that all church age believers will receive whatever rewards and be assigned whatever level of responsibilities they will have in the Kingdom at that time.
...it kind of reminded me of my own belief. We Mormons probably just have a more specific belief in this regard than other Christians do, but we do believe that greater faithfulness and obedience will result in greater rewards.
Okay, I'll give you the in-a-nutshell answer and then, in a separate post will give you the comprehensive answer.
We believe that in the future, our earth will be renewed and will receive a paradisiacal glory. This event will be associated with the millennial reign of Jesus Christ, and the earth will ultimately become "a new heaven and a new earth." This, we see to be in accordance with Isaiah 65:17, which says: "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."
P.S. There will be more than 144,000 there.
Something else we agree on then. I am firmly pre-millennial.
Something else we agree on then. I am firmly pre-millennial.
You know, I have heard that term before -- i.e. pre-millennial -- but we don't actually use it in Mormonism. Can you explain exactly what it is, and what the other option might be?
You know, I have heard that term before -- i.e. pre-millennial -- but we don't actually use it in Mormonism. Can you explain exactly what it is, and what the other option might be?
There are three primary views regarding the Millennium. One is the amillennial view which basically means no literal millennium. Those who hold this view hold an allegorical view in which the church is already in a metaphorical 'millennium.' Afterwards, Jesus will return and bring in the new heavens and earth.
There is the post-millennial view in which the church is supposed to gradually bring in the Millennium by making the world a better place, after which Jesus will return.
And then the Pre-millennial view in which Jesus will return at the end of the Tribulation and establish His kingdom on the earth. At the end of the thousand years the present heavens and earth will be replaced by the new heavens and earth. And that's the view which I hold.
There are three primary views regarding the Millennium. One is the amillennial view which basically means no literal millennium. Those who hold this view hold an allegorical view in which the church is already in a metaphorical 'millennium.' Afterwards, Jesus will return and bring in the new heavens and earth.
There is the post-millennial view in which the church is supposed to gradually bring in the Millennium by making the world a better place, after which Jesus will return.
And then the Pre-millennial view in which Jesus will return at the end of the Tribulation and establish His kingdom on the earth. At the end of the thousand years the present heavens and earth will be replaced by the new heavens and earth. And that's the view which I hold.
Gotcha! Thanks. It appears as if Mormons are firmly pre-millennialists, too -- aside from the fact that we never actually use the word "rapture."
Okay, the slightly longer version of where we will spend eternity (but still not the comprehensive one, as I tend to be overly wordy and don't want to bore people to death):
We believe that no one goes immediately to Heaven or to Hell after death, but to a sort of an intermediate realm known as the "Spirit World." It is there where we will reside in spirit form as we await the Millennium and our own resurrections. The Spirit World is not so much a place as a state of mind. For the righteous, the Spirit World will be akin to Paradise. It will be a state of peace and rest. For the unrepentant wicked, it will be very much a place of emotional anguish, a Hell or a Prison. These people will be tormented by guilt for their past deeds and will dread God's judgment which they know will ultimately take place.
I have to disagree with some of that. I believe that we do go to the third heaven where paradise is now located, or to Hades more or less immediately when we die. I do believe that both heaven and hades are places, but are outside of our space/time reference. Whether we get escorted to either place by angels, or whether we simply wake up there, I don't know. If heaven is interdimensional, then when we die it could just be a matter of crossing over so to speak.
I do believe that in Hades, and afterwards, the lake of fire, whatever the precise nature of that place is, much of the torment will be mental anguish.
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Although we do not believe Jesus Christ will be physically present in this realm, we do believe that when He visited Hell during the three days His body lay in the tomb, He bridged the divide between Paradise and Hell and made it possible for those who had not heard His gospel during their lifetimes to both hear and accept it while in the Spirit World. We believe that there is no scriptural support for the idea that either Paradise or Hell/Prison have since ceased to exist, as billions even today find themselves in the same position as those Christ personally preached His gospel to did. It is our sincere conviction that those who are now in Paradise are continuing the work of spreading the gospel to those who continue to be tortured by their past, and that these individuals may still come to understand and accept Jesus Christ's Atonement on their behalf. When they do, they will be released from their Prison-like state and spend the remainder of their wait for the resurrection in the peace and rest of Paradise.
I believe that paradise was once a compartment of Hades, but was transferred to the third heaven when Jesus ascended to heaven. I believe that the torments part of hades is still the destination of those who die without having trusted in Christ for salvation and that they will remain there until the final judgment. I also believe that tartarus is another compartment of hades where the group of fallen angels that took part in the Genesis 6:4 affair are currently imprisoned and also awaiting the final day of judgment.
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We do not believe that the final judgment will take place until literally every soul who has ever lived has had the opportunity to hear, understand, and either accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. God has repeatedly said that it is through Jesus Christ and Him alone that our sins may be remitted. We cannot hope to be saved without faith in Him. But God truly does want all of us back in His presence and is going to make sure that we have every opportunity to do what we need to do to live with Him again. Anyway, ultimately, we will all stand before God to be judged, the righteous at the beginning of the Millennium and the wicked at the end of the Millennium, and will then receive our reward. We believe that by the end of the Millennium, even most of the wicked will have come to recognize Jesus Christ as their Savior and will receive a portion of God's glory. We actually see very few as being judged as worthy of eternal punishment.
Lastly, we believe in three different degrees of heavenly glory, spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. This entire chapter is about what will happen to us at the resurrection. In Paul's words: "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." When you said earlier... ...it kind of reminded me of my own belief. We Mormons probably just have a more specific belief in this regard than other Christians do, but we do believe that greater faithfulness and obedience will result in greater rewards.
Regardless of what heaven is like, it will certainly be a glorious place.
I think I've posted about as much as I can for today Katz. I'm getting a bit tired. Time to relax. So I'll say good night.
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I guess both of us have been around long enough to have learned a thing or two.
