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Something to meditate on. Consistent with the 3 section Tabernacle pattern design, we read of waters (people and spirits are called waters) BELOW the firmament, and waters ABOVE the firmament, with the firmament being as heaven. Now if we are born from above (above the waters below the firmament), then our citizenship as Paul stated, is heaven, the firmament above the waters below.
So if that is heaven and the way we "enter" it, then what of the waters below? Being born from above means life, so then NOT being born from above means we are dead (dead in sins and trespasses). And if dead, then no different spiritually than the ones who died without choosing to know Him in this life and are literally physically dead already. Meaning they TOO, are part of the waters below the firmament, which means they too are in the outer court.
So whether in the body or out of it, there is a way to be dead, just as there is a way to be alive whether in the body or out of it, and they both depend on whether or not we have been born from above, which has made us alive. Which is why all Israel and even STRANGERS to the covenant were allowed in the outer court/waters below the firmament in type.
Now if we know that the inner court is the MIDST of the garden and therefore the outer court/waters below the firmament is also part of His garden, then the WHOLE GARDEN IS HIS (and every man has a season). Peace
- POSIT: When the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live (Luke 12:47-48). This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
RESPONSE: Rome's way of interpreting that passage is one way, but it's not the only way. However; before suggesting an alternative, it would be prudent to examine the entire parable in context.
● Luke 12:42-48 . . Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute [the] food allowance at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so. Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.
. . . But if that servant says to himself; "My master is delayed in coming" and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk, then that servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful.
. . .That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.
That parable doesn't target John Q and Jane Doe rank and file pew warmers, rather, it specifically targets people in charge. The Greek word for "steward" is oikonomos (oy-kon-om'-os) which identifies someone employed to supervise others; i.e. hierarchy.
The fate of stewards found in willful dereliction of duty is not only flogging but also "a place with the unfaithful".
The Greek word for "unfaithful" is apistos (ap'-is-tos) which identifies unbelievers. Their "place" isn't purgatory, rather, their place is described as follows:
● Rev 21:8 . . But as for the unfaithful, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
- POSIT: 1Pet 1:3-7 . . Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you who by the power of God are safeguarded through faith, to a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the final time.
. . . In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
RESPONSE: 1Pet 1:3-7 is sometimes understood to be a reiteration of 1Cor 3:5-15, but the tests are not the same.
1Cor 3:5-15 tests the quality of one's works, while 1Pet 1:3-7 tests the quality of one's faith.
The timing is different too. 1Cor 3:5-15's testing takes place in the afterlife, while 1Pet 1:3-7's testing takes place in this life.
- POSIT: "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Rev 21:3-4)
Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
RESPONSE: The tears, the death, the mourning, the crying, and the pain are related to the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, which will be a public spectacle. In other words, people will have to watch as friends, family, associates, and loved ones are literally pale with terror, lips trembling, mouths too dry to speak, shrieking, sobbing, screaming, weeping, yelping, and bellowing like wounded dogs as their eyes dart about in sheer white-knuckled panic; desperately looking for someone, anyone, to help them as powerful celestial beings drag them off to death akin to a foundry worker falling into a vat of molten iron.
Paul said the greatest of all gifts is love (1Cor 13:13). But let me tell you something: Love is inconvenient. Sensitive folk cannot sit through a scene like the one described above and not be moved by it. The effect will be so overwhelming that nothing less than the power of God will suffice to get them over it.
- POSIT: "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Rev 21:3-4)
Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
RESPONSE: The tears, the death, the mourning, the crying, and the pain are related to the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15, which will be a public spectacle. In other words, people will have to watch as friends, family, associates, and loved ones are literally pale with terror, lips trembling, mouths too dry to speak, shrieking, sobbing, screaming, weeping, yelping, and bellowing like wounded dogs as their eyes dart about in sheer white-knuckled panic; desperately looking for someone, anyone, to help them as powerful celestial beings drag them off to death akin to a foundry worker falling into a vat of molten iron.
Paul said the greatest of all gifts is love (1Cor 13:13). But let me tell you something: Love is inconvenient. Sensitive folk cannot sit through a scene like the one described above and not be moved by it. The effect will be so overwhelming that nothing less than the power of God will suffice to get them over it.
/
Odd. Yet David, a type of Christ, said that though his soul be in hell, there You are with me.
What first must be understood is that a DIVORCE happens between soul and spirit at death. The spirit leaving the body and soul is what constitutes death in the first place. So the spirit we are told returns to the One that sent it, but what of the soul? What does He promise for His put away (divorced) wife Israel, a type of the soul? And what does her being outside of the covenant mean, given that covenant means a UNION of two and I just showed you that the soul and spirit are divorced at death?
You better hope there is a place of reflection and repentance for the put away "wife", the soul, else she is cut off out of His presence forever, and His promises to Israel show, that is simply not the case, though she be divorced for a season, and was even taken captive as punishment, just as it says Satan takes people captive at his will. Peace
- POSIT: Heb 12:5-11 teaches that the Father's children have to undergo discipline; for example David in 2Sam 11:1-2Sam 12:14. Though God spared David's life for the mortal sins of premeditated murder and adultery, he was still taught a lesson for what he did. Had David not been disciplined for his sins in this life, he would have been taken to the woodshed for them in purgatory.
RESPONSE: That posit makes perfect sense. It's totally logical; and except for one teensy little hiccup, it would fly. The hiccup? It's an amalgam of humanistic reasoning and inspired scripture. In other words: the posit contains an element of truth, but it's not the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
That kind of reasoning is called sophistry; which Webster's defines as reasoning or arguments that sound correct but are actually false. In point of fact, one of the very reasons that Christ supplies his followers with competent teaching is to steer them clear of clever talkers skilled at making ecclesiastical fiction sound like the God's truth. (Eph 4:11-14)
- POSIT: Heb 12:5-11 teaches that the Father's children have to undergo discipline; for example David in 2Sam 11:1-2Sam 12:14. Though God spared David's life for the mortal sins of premeditated murder and adultery, he was still taught a lesson for what he did. Had David not been disciplined for his sins in this life, he would have been taken to the woodshed for them in purgatory.
RESPONSE: That posit makes perfect sense. It's totally logical; and except for one teensy little hiccup, it would fly. The hiccup? It's an amalgam of humanistic reasoning and inspired scripture. In other words: the posit contains an element of truth, but it's not the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
That kind of reasoning is called sophistry; which Webster's defines as reasoning or arguments that sound correct but are actually false. In point of fact, one of the very reasons that Christ supplies his followers with competent teaching is to steer them clear of clever talkers skilled at making ecclesiastical fiction sound like the God's truth. (Eph 4:11-14)
/
Yet more labels. You can always tell when someone has a weak position because the labels start to fly. You can't reason away the scriptures to fit what you have been taught of men, although many try.
Regardless, what I said stands, and any person not indoctrinated with the fairy tales of men, should be able to see the truth of it. He reproves us with our OWN wickedness and we are made to eat of the fruit of our OWN lips. Life and death is in the tongue. Yet we see people all day every day escape such judgments in this life.
Dante's hell, of course, is waiting for them, Churchianity says, but His Word says that His mercy endures forever, which is why He's bringing Israel in, His corporate first wife, as well as what she represents, mankind's corporate souls, because BOTH get divorced for idolatry/adultery. Which is why we are told that EVERYTHING that happened to them was for our example. One is a macrocosm view, the other is a microcosm view, and BOTH mirror each other for that reason, as His principles are to be applied across the board. Peace
- POSIT: Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27) ergo: there is a need to purify the Lord's people in a purgatory before they can enter paradise.
RESPONSE: That particular barrier to Heaven easily explains why Jesus said that a birth from above is a must rather than an option (John 3:3-8) and also explains why Paul said that human beings, as they come from the factory in the Adamic configuration, will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 15:50)
The Spirit birth, about which Christ spoke, produces a genre of human being that, from a certain point of view, is somewhat inhuman; viz: not of this earth.
● John 3:6 . . Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Has God's Spirit ever even once needed purification? No; of course not. Well then, someone born of Him doesn't need purification either because they are a new kind of person incapable of ever committing even one single sin in either thought, word, or deed.
● 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Born-again Christians are complex people: they exist with a sinful, natural aspect born of Adam simultaneously with a sinless, supernatural aspect born of God’s Spirit. The trick then is to separate the natural from the supernatural and allow only the supernatural aspect born of God’s Spirit to pass on into the afterlife and discard the natural aspect born of Adam.
This process about which I’m posting, is a miraculous surgical procedure, called in the Bible, a “circumcision made without hands”
● Col 2:10-12. .You have been made complete in him . . and in him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also resurrected with him through faith in the working of God, who resurrected him from the dead.
In a nutshell then: humans born of God’s Spirit, and undergone the circumcision made without hands, have no need of purification when they pass on because the aspect with which they pass on is just as totally innocent as God's firstborn son, i.e. they no longer have human nature; rather, they have the nature of God.
● 2Pet 1:2-4 . . Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the Divine Nature.
Human nature is humanity's greatest moral weakness. People will never be pure enough to live in close proximity with a holy God while they're stuck with it no matter how many times, nor how often, they'd be cycled through Leo X's afterlife washing machine.
/
Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 02-01-2017 at 10:18 AM..
- POSIT: Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27) ergo: there is a need to purify the Lord's people in a purgatory before they can enter paradise.
RESPONSE: That particular barrier to Heaven easily explains why Jesus said that a birth from above is a must rather than an option (John 3:3-8) and also explains why Paul said that human beings, as they come from the factory in the Adamic configuration, will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 15:50)
The Spirit birth, about which Christ spoke, produces a genre of human being that, from a certain point of view, is somewhat inhuman; viz: not of this earth.
● John 3:6 . . Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Has God's Spirit ever even once needed purification? No; of course not. Well then, someone born of Him doesn't need purification either because they are a new kind of person incapable of ever committing even one single sin in either thought, word, or deed.
● 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Born-again Christians are complex people: they exist with a sinful, natural aspect born of Adam simultaneously with a sinless, supernatural aspect born of God’s Spirit. The trick then is to separate the natural from the supernatural and allow only the supernatural aspect born of God’s Spirit to pass on into the afterlife and discard the natural aspect born of Adam.
This process about which I’m posting, is a miraculous surgical procedure, called in the Bible, a “circumcision made without hands”
● Col 2:10-12. .You have been made complete in him . . and in him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also resurrected with him through faith in the working of God, who resurrected him from the dead.
In a nutshell then: humans born of God’s Spirit, and undergone the circumcision made without hands, have no need of purification when they pass on because the aspect with which they pass on is just as totally innocent as God's firstborn son, i.e. they no longer have human nature; rather, they have the nature of God.
● 2Pet 1:2-4 . . Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the Divine Nature.
Human nature is humanity's greatest moral weakness. People will never be pure enough to live in close proximity with a holy God while they're stuck with it no matter how many times, nor how often, they'd be cycled through Leo X's afterlife washing machine.
/
Not following the pattern given in the Tabernacle is once again, what makes things so difficult to comprehend for most people. There are 3 courts. These line up with spirit, soul, and body. They also line up with called, justified (sanctified) and glorified (as in your body).
Salvation is NOT a one time thing, it's a process which when worked out (work out your own salvation with fear and trembling) leads to the COMPLETE salvation of the person, spirit, soul, and body. Not understanding this BASIC principle is why scriptures are usually MISapplied to different parts of our triune beings without a clear understanding coming from any of it.
We are saved, we are being saved, and we shall be saved (to the uttermost). Just because one has initial salvation experience (called/initial spirit salvation) doesn't mean they have been justified (sanctified/soul salvation), and certainly not glorified (glorified body), and it certainly does NOT mean they have had their heart circumcised already. Knowledge of the Tabernacle enables one to see PRECISELY where they fit personally in the walk from the outer to the Most Holy, and what they need to apply to continue their walk, and to what.
Failure to do so, means you can literally sit on a church pew for 40 years as many do, listening to the mesmerizing drone of your 150,000th initial salvation message and never grow beyond the milk of the Word, or you can begin to apply yourself to wisdom from above and GROW. Everyone has that same choice to make. Peace
Something to meditate on. Consistent with the 3 section Tabernacle pattern design, we read of waters (people and spirits are called waters) BELOW the firmament, and waters ABOVE the firmament, with the firmament being as heaven. Now if we are born from above (above the waters below the firmament), then our citizenship as Paul stated, is heaven, the firmament above the waters below.
So if that is heaven and the way we "enter" it, then what of the waters below? Being born from above means life, so then NOT being born from above means we are dead (dead in sins and trespasses). And if dead, then no different spiritually than the ones who died without choosing to know Him in this life and are literally physically dead already. Meaning they TOO, are part of the waters below the firmament, which means they too are in the outer court.
So whether in the body or out of it, there is a way to be dead, just as there is a way to be alive whether in the body or out of it, and they both depend on whether or not we have been born from above, which has made us alive. Which is why all Israel and even STRANGERS to the covenant were allowed in the outer court/waters below the firmament in type.
Now if we know that the inner court is the MIDST of the garden and therefore the outer court/waters below the firmament is also part of His garden, then the WHOLE GARDEN IS HIS (and every man has a season). Peace
Very beautifully explained.
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Re: Purgatory?
