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Old 01-12-2017, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 217,777 times
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One of Rome's earliest official proclamations regarding a purgatory was Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness.

In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin; consequently they won't commit any new sins while undergoing discipline and purification.

I'm sure it can be seen right off just how essential it would be for souls in a purgatory to be incapable of sinning, because if they weren't, then Rome’s promise in CCC.1030, of an assured eternal salvation for purgatorians, would be a tenuous guarantee indeed since each new sin committed while interred in a purgatory would add time to the penitent’s original sentence; with the very real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where they would never be released.

If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in purgatory then I would have to conclude that it's a very peaceful place seeing as how everyone in residence there would be complying with the Sermon On The Mount and all the beatitudes.

One of the things that I would really appreciate in Leo's purgatory is civility. I've participated on better than thirty Christian internet forums beginning in 1997, and one of the things I've noticed is that too many people wearing the Christian label have forgotten all about turning the other cheek. Oh m' gosh you wouldn't believe how ugly, spiteful, and vindictive Christians can be when they put their minds to it!

In Leo's purgatory; there's no cruelty of any kind; for example dishonesty, malicious gossip, demeaning comments, thoughtless remarks, name-calling, toxic rejoinders, discourtesy, chafing, quarrelling, bickering, mockery, relentless ridicule,

. . . fault-finding, nit picking, spite, rivalry, carping, bullying, heckling, intimidation, wiseacre retorts, needling, taunting, biting sarcasm, petty ill will, yelling, ugly insinuations, cold-shouldering, calculated insults, snobbery, elitism, arrogance, subterfuge, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression, injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, etc, etc, et al, and ad nauseam.

If Leo is correct. then we can expect that all the Christian virtues, every one of them, are being exemplified 24/7/365 in purgatory.

However, if Leo's Bull is full of bull, then I think we can reasonably expect purgatory's social environment to be little different than what we're accustomed.

Most Catholics regard purgatory as a safety net whence they will be taken in the event they fail to sufficiently measure up to God's standards. However, purgatory is not all that easy to attain. According to the Catechism, CCC 1035, Catholics are just inches from the worst. Should it happen that they leave this life with just one un-absolved mortal sin on the books, just one, they go directly to Hell; no stop-over in a half-way house. No, their trip is a direct flight. Even if they've been a faithful Catholic for 49 years, they will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist. All their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the record and count for naught.

Q: Does the Bible teach a purgatory?

A: Though there are numerous passages in the Bible that suggest its possibility; purgatory isn't an obvious, clear-cut, black and white teaching. Rome has appropriated those suggestive passages as their proof texts. However, passages that suggest one thing, can also be made to suggest another, so I do not recommend putting too much stock in Rome's ideas. It is much safer to assume the worst, and then begin preparing yourself for it in the event that purgatory turns out to be a huge mistake. Better to aim too high than too low.

/
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Old 01-13-2017, 04:17 AM
 
8,707 posts, read 7,923,752 times
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Actually Purgatory come from scriptures in 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 .... ``He took up a collection among all his soldiers amounting to two thousand silver drachmas , which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for a expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way , inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view, for inasmuch as were not expecting the fallen to rise again , it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death . But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was holy and pious thought . Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin ``................................. Still this book of Maccabees is part of the Apocrypha Books which was rejected from the bible for most Christians , and even Jesus said years after this book was written that for sin `` repent or perish `` ........ So there were many people who spent their lives with one sin or other but repented before they passed on , and Jesus collected their souls for heaven ......
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Old 01-13-2017, 05:33 AM
 
Location: Panama City, FL
3,535 posts, read 1,216,161 times
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This Chapter in Matthew leads me to believe there will be plenty of purifying done after death. How long that takes or how it is done, I do not know. We should do our best to become pure before departing this world through the in-working of the Holy Spirit of Christ in our lives.

Matthew Chapter 5
1.And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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Old 01-13-2017, 05:43 AM
 
Location: NSW
3,068 posts, read 2,182,208 times
Reputation: 1061
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
-
One of Rome's earliest official proclamations regarding a purgatory was Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness.

In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin; consequently they won't commit any new sins while undergoing discipline and purification.

I'm sure it can be seen right off just how essential it would be for souls in a purgatory to be incapable of sinning, because if they weren't, then Rome’s promise in CCC.1030, of an assured eternal salvation for purgatorians, would be a tenuous guarantee indeed since each new sin committed while interred in a purgatory would add time to the penitent’s original sentence; with the very real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where they would never be released.

If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in purgatory then I would have to conclude that it's a very peaceful place seeing as how everyone in residence there would be complying with the Sermon On The Mount and all the beatitudes.

One of the things that I would really appreciate in Leo's purgatory is civility. I've participated on better than thirty Christian internet forums beginning in 1997, and one of the things I've noticed is that too many people wearing the Christian label have forgotten all about turning the other cheek. Oh m' gosh you wouldn't believe how ugly, spiteful, and vindictive Christians can be when they put their minds to it!

In Leo's purgatory; there's no cruelty of any kind; for example dishonesty, malicious gossip, demeaning comments, thoughtless remarks, name-calling, toxic rejoinders, discourtesy, chafing, quarrelling, bickering, mockery, relentless ridicule,

. . . fault-finding, nit picking, spite, rivalry, carping, bullying, heckling, intimidation, wiseacre retorts, needling, taunting, biting sarcasm, petty ill will, yelling, ugly insinuations, cold-shouldering, calculated insults, snobbery, elitism, arrogance, subterfuge, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression, injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, etc, etc, et al, and ad nauseam.

If Leo is correct. then we can expect that all the Christian virtues, every one of them, are being exemplified 24/7/365 in purgatory.

However, if Leo's Bull is full of bull, then I think we can reasonably expect purgatory's social environment to be little different than what we're accustomed.

Most Catholics regard purgatory as a safety net whence they will be taken in the event they fail to sufficiently measure up to God's standards. However, purgatory is not all that easy to attain. According to the Catechism, CCC 1035, Catholics are just inches from the worst. Should it happen that they leave this life with just one un-absolved mortal sin on the books, just one, they go directly to Hell; no stop-over in a half-way house. No, their trip is a direct flight. Even if they've been a faithful Catholic for 49 years, they will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist. All their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the record and count for naught.

Q: Does the Bible teach a purgatory?

A: Though there are numerous passages in the Bible that suggest its possibility; purgatory isn't an obvious, clear-cut, black and white teaching. Rome has appropriated those suggestive passages as their proof texts. However, passages that suggest one thing, can also be made to suggest another, so I do not recommend putting too much stock in Rome's ideas. It is much safer to assume the worst, and then begin preparing yourself for it in the event that purgatory turns out to be a huge mistake. Better to aim too high than too low.

/
The Trinity was never mentioned either, but Protestants kept that one..
Hindus, Muslims?
No Catholic says they miss the boat, that is purely a Fundamentalist perspective.
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Old 01-13-2017, 06:11 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
21,093 posts, read 25,656,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic View Post
This Chapter in Matthew leads me to believe there will be plenty of purifying done after death. How long that takes or how it is done, I do not know. We should do our best to become pure before departing this world through the in-working of the Holy Spirit of Christ in our lives.

SNIPPED FOR BREVITY...

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?


48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Absolutely..ALL means ALL and EVERYONE is included in this group of ALL.
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Old 01-13-2017, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 217,777 times
Reputation: 57
Post Re: Purgtory?

-
POSIT: In 2Mcc 12:38-46 a Jewish military commander named Judas Maccabeus made an attempt to atone for his dead soldiers' pagan amulets which he believed is a crime against God for Jews to wear. So Judas passed the hat among his surviving men and collected about 2,000 silver drachmas which were sent to Jerusalem intended for a sacrifice to expiate his dead men's sin so that it wouldn't jeopardize their resurrection.

RESPONSE: Although Judas meant well; what he did was itself a violation of the very Law that he sought to appease. There are no sacrifices stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy for expiating the unforgiven sins that people take with them over to the afterlife.

The very Law he sought to appease makes it a crime to either amend, embellish, add to, revise, edit, upgrade, update, or subtract from the covenant.

Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I enjoin upon you.

Deut 5:32-33 . . Be careful, therefore, to do as the LORD, your God, has commanded you, not turning aside to the right or to the left, but following exactly the way prescribed for you by the LORD, your God,

Deut 26:16 . . This day the LORD, your God, commands you to observe these statutes and decrees. Be careful, then, to observe them with all your heart and with all your soul.

Therefore, had the priests at Jerusalem accepted Judas Maccabeus' 2,000 silver drachmas for the purpose he intended, they would have been cursed.

Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who fails to fulfill any of the provisions of this law!

The phrase "cursed be" is grammatically present tense; so that when Yhvh's people beak any one of the laws stipulated in the covenant they incur an instant curse upon themselves-- no delay, and no waiting period.

Bottom line: What Judas Maccabeus did was just as pagan as the amulets that his men were wearing when they died.

Q: How dare you dispute the truth of 2Mcc 12:38-46. It’s in the Holy Bible!

A: Just because somebody's personal beliefs are recorded in the Bible does not make their personal beliefs eo ipso truth. Judas believed it was possible for living Jews to offer sacrifices for the unforgiven sins of deceased Jews. Is it? No; absolutely not! Were it possible, then a procedure for that purpose would be stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Atonements for the dead fall into the category of sins of presumption; viz: unauthorized behavior.

If 2Mcc 12:38-46 teaches anything at all it’s that the Israel of Judas Maccabeus’ day was spiritually decadent-- just as decadent as it was in the days of the Judges when every man did that which was right in his own eyes rather than Yhvh's eyes; and they were still at it even in Christ's day.

Mark 7:6-9 . . And Jesus said to them: Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. In futility do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men. Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.

Mark 7:13 . . You invalidate the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

/

Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 01-13-2017 at 09:06 AM..
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:51 AM
 
4,636 posts, read 4,726,165 times
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P is for Pope
U is for Unreal
R is for Rubbish
G is for Guilty as charged.
A is for Alluring lie.
T is for Torment untold.
O is for Oh, my flames.
R is for Ridiculous.
Y is for You were deceived.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:24 AM
Status: "02/11/21: I am fully vaccinated. Yay!!!!!" (set 1 hour ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
24,182 posts, read 24,630,783 times
Reputation: 11714
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
P is for Pope
U is for Unreal
R is for Rubbish
G is for Guilty as charged.
A is for Alluring lie.
T is for Torment untold.
O is for Oh, my flames.
R is for Ridiculous.
Y is for You were deceived.
Oh that's cute. Why don't you set it to music!
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:25 AM
 
19,943 posts, read 14,800,980 times
Reputation: 1987
No. It's an invention. Logically, with the idea of infused righteousness, you're only as good as what Jesus has done through you lately. That's RCC theology.

With infused righteousness, we actually receive Jesus' righteousness, and we don't have to worry about having sins purged from us. There is no intermediate stopping point between Earth and Heaven.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:29 AM
Status: "02/11/21: I am fully vaccinated. Yay!!!!!" (set 1 hour ago)
 
Location: Salt Lake City
24,182 posts, read 24,630,783 times
Reputation: 11714
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Q: Does the Bible teach a purgatory?

A: Though there are numerous passages in the Bible that suggest its possibility; purgatory isn't an obvious, clear-cut, black and white teaching. Rome has appropriated those suggestive passages as their proof texts. However, passages that suggest one thing, can also be made to suggest another, so I do not recommend putting too much stock in Rome's ideas. It is much safer to assume the worst, and then begin preparing yourself for it in the event that purgatory turns out to be a huge mistake. Better to aim too high than too low.
No, the Bible does not teach of a place or a state called Purgatory. But, early Christian writings do indicate the belief in a state of existence after death from which the concept of Purgatory probably evolved. The final judgment does not immediately follow death, and the spirit is cognizant during the time between the death and the resurrection and final judgment. The earliest Christians did, in fact, believe that death is not the end of our opportunity to learn, grow and repent of our sins.
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