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The problem there is the strange idea that the Bible came from God rather than the perceptions of the writers ABOUT God. This makes irrelevant the history of the time and the various conflicts of the time the NT was being developed and how we can see evidences of the different ideas remaining in the final product.
Oh, wow! See above being entered as I typed.
The writers and Jesus claimed that the words came from God. They each referred to to the other writings as from God. No? Do we ignore that?
I know studying the Bible is fare more important that studying it history written by men.
It will do one more good to understand 1 verse in the Bile than to read a book written by men, that might not even be accurate.
It is a disservice to God to put history over His Scripture.
OTOH, how do Christians (especially the individual "doing it on their own") know they fully understand the truth of Scripture. many say that the truth is plain to read especially with the help of the Holy Spirit but if so why do so MANY sincere people come to radically DIFFERENT conclusions on what indeed IS the truth contained in the Bible: WHO is Christ? how is He the "Son of God" or for that matter the "Logos" of God? what is the true relation of Christ to His Father? WHO (or what) is the Holy Spirit, did Christ anywhere in Scripture tell his Disciples to WRITE any kind of book or books or did He instead establish a Church/Ecclesia/Gathering to continue preaching and teaching His message? what does Christ mean about "eating" His body and "drinking" His blood? how does His death take away sin? When will He return? what does "faith", "grace", and "works" (in the sense of James's epistles) relate to each other, is there a difference between "justification" and "sanctification", and that's just for starters, LOL!!!!
you may have an answer based on your understanding of Scripture and somebody else (especially on this forum!!!) also has a subtle or not so subtle different answer based on their own understanding---which is the true one.
can they BOTH be true? only one (which one) is true? or is it possible that both are missing the mark and the truth is something different?
we may (or may not) all "agree to disagree" on one or more topics and of course it may well be that true or false our FAITH is USELESS if we do not have CHARITY (love) and show that charity in acts of mercy and forgiveness for love of God and our neighbor.
in the peace and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 01-23-2017 at 11:33 AM..
OTOH, how do Christians (especially the individual "doing it on their own") know they fully understand the truth of Scripture. many say that the truth is plain to read especially with the help of the Holy Spirit but if so why do so MANY sincere people come to radically DIFFERENT conclusions on what indeed IS the truth contained in the Bible: WHO is Christ? how is He the "Son of God" or for that matter the "Logos" of God? what is the true relation of Christ to His Father? did Christ anywhere in Scripture tell his Disciples to WRITE any kind of book or books or did He instead establish a Church/Ecclesia/Gathering to continue preaching and teaching His message? what does Christ mean about "eating" His body and "drinking" His blood? how does His death take away sin? When will He return? what does "faith", "grace", and "works" (in the sense of James's epistles"), and that's just for starters, LOL!!!!
you may have an answer and somebody else (especially on this forum!!!) also has a subtle or not so subtle different answer
How many Christians ask Him for wisdom and ask the Holy Ghost to teach them and not man, and then wait upon Him until He begins to? And by wait, I mean not taking other men's opinions, nor reading any other books other than the Word and trusting Him to reveal it in due season. True agreement can come only through His Spirit, for the Spirit is not divided and He can teach the same principles in myriads of different scriptures, thereby being a witness to someone who has been taught THE SAME PRINCIPLE, even if through different scriptures, for out of two or three witnesses is every word confirmed.
And then, how many use the pattern referred to us in Hebrews 9, the tabernacle of Moses, to compare natural things with spiritual things?
There are your answers to why so many sincere people come to different conclusions. Unless wisdom builds the house they labor in vain, and wisdom comes from above, like every other good and perfect gift. Peace
How many Christians ask Him for wisdom and ask the Holy Ghost to teach them and not man, and then wait upon Him until He begins to? And by wait, I mean not taking other men's opinions, nor reading any other books other than the Word and trusting Him to reveal it in due season. True agreement can come only through His Spirit, for the Spirit is not divided and He can teach the same principles in myriads of different scriptures, thereby being a witness to someone who has been taught THE SAME PRINCIPLE, even if through different scriptures, for out of two or three witnesses is every word confirmed.
And then, how many use the pattern referred to us in Hebrews 9, the tabernacle of Moses, to compare natural things with spiritual things?
There are your answers to why so many sincere people come to different conclusions. Unless wisdom builds the house they labor in vain, and wisdom comes from above, like every other good and perfect gift. Peace
many people claim to have asked God's help to understand the Bible and asked sincerely for wisdom, grace, and understanding from and though the Holy Spirit to do so and STILL came to radically different opinions and beliefs---the many discussions, arguments, and knock-down/drag outs on this forum by apparently well-meaning and sincere Christians on so many topics (should Christians worship on Saturday OR Sunday for example, is there a Trinity, is Jesus Divine in the same way as God, etc.) show this only too well. are those who differ from you or I then all fools, knaves, sadly mislead or deluded, or even just trouble makers of some sort when they believe differently than you or I after likely making the same prayers and claiming the same reliance on what wisdom they believe God reveals to them?
how can either of us "prove" our truth by relying on our own understanding of Scripture or by appeal to Divine inspiration for that understanding when someone else ALSO claims the same inspiration but a different conclusion on one or more matters of faith or practice?
many people claim to have asked God's help to understand the Bible and asked sincerely for wisdom, grace, and understanding from and though the Holy Spirit to do so and STILL came to radically different opinions and beliefs---the many discussions, arguments, and knock-down/drag outs on this forum by apparently well-meaning and sincere Christians on so many topics (should Christians worship on Saturday OR Sunday for example, is there a Trinity, is Jesus Divine in the same way as God, etc.) show this only too well. are those who differ from you or I then all fools, knaves, sadly mislead or deluded, or even just trouble makers of some sort when they believe differently than you or I after likely making the same prayers and claiming the same reliance on what wisdom they believe God reveals to them?
how can either of us "prove" our truth by relying on our own understanding of Scripture or by appeal to Divine inspiration for that understanding when someone else ALSO claims the same inspiration but a different conclusion on one or more matters of faith or practice?
in the peace of Christ.
Did you miss the part about the tabernacle being the PATTERN OF HEAVENLY (thus spiritual) THINGS? Peace
The writers and Jesus claimed that the words came from God. They each referred to to the other writings as from God. No? Do we ignore that?
If that is the case, then why did Christ flout Old Testament teachings? For example, in the Old Testament law for adulterous women was stoning. Yet when confronted with an adulterous woman, Christ finessed matters so that the law wasn't carried out.
Why do some Christians not know about the history of Christianity, or dismiss it as centuries of apostasy that was only reversed when their particular denomination began?
there are logical solutions and emotional solutions. And we are a mixture of them both. IMO. The more emotional the need in that person the more their personal solution may differ from observations. fundymental christians and milli-mental atheists are good examples of emotional needs totally out weighing observations.
Did you miss the part about the tabernacle being the PATTERN OF HEAVENLY (thus spiritual) THINGS? Peace
nope, just don't get it's particular relevance (so sorry maybe I'm just dumber than usual today!!!) to the discussion.
FWIW, even Peter said that the writings of another inspired apostle (Paul) were easily misunderstood and twisted (2 Peter 3:16) and certainly there was significant and important struggles on belief and practice among sincere) Christians early on as to whether gentile Christians had or did not have to observe the full Mosaic law (circumcision, kosher, Sabbath, etc.) to be saved (see Colossians 2:16 or Acts 15:29 for example) and it would only get more intense as time passed as to what is the true understanding of Jesus and His relation to God and the Holy Spirit (the various battles about the nature (or not) of the "Trinity")---all fought out between SINCERE believers who prayed on/reflected on/asked for God's inspiration on the Scriptures and came to very different beliefs---all too many of which continue to bedevil, bewilder, and divide us so that sadly we are STILL unable to confess "ONE faith, ONE Lord, ONE baptism, ONE God and Father..."(Ephesians 4:5).
may God in Christ through the Holy Spirit help bring us all together in faith, hope, and charity.
If that is the case, then why did Christ flout Old Testament teachings? For example, in the Old Testament law for adulterous women was stoning. Yet when confronted with an adulterous woman, Christ finessed matters so that the law wasn't carried out.
And yet He said numerous times, "It is written..." In the story of the Rich man and Lazarus, He said "‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
And yet He said numerous times, "It is written..." In the story of the Rich man and Lazarus, He said "‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
You're right. But when confronted with the code of Leviticus, he ignored it. So are you saying that Christ followed the Old Testament when convenient when ignored it when it was not?
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