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So when the scriptures say, No murder, sexually immoral, liar, thief etc will inherit the kingdom, is that all make believe that we can live those lifestyles and still go to heaven in the end inspite of what the scriptures say. Do you really think that a believer can just wake up one day and say im going to be a terrorist and kill people and when they die there going to heaven because they were saved before they decided to live that lifestyle.
There ARE many verses which talk about discipline and loss of rewards for living according to the world and not the spirit of God. But there are also verses which talk about the security of the believer, that our actions do not earn us salvation nor keep us saved. So how are we to understand them? I know that at one time I wanted to throw my Bible through a window.
But if you understand that God is working His whole plan by the counsel of HIS will, not human will or desire, but HIS will, and that He talks about ages, then you can begin to understand that He is NOT calling everyone to become an overcomer in THIS age. There is so much meaning to the 3 feasts God commanded Israel to keep. God works within ages to reap His harvests. Barley first, then the wheat, then the grapes.
Inheriting the Kingdom is about who will rule and reign with Him while His work continues in this earth in a different age. What higher honor could one receive than to be one of His governors, helping others see what He has been doing throughout history? Think of the parable of the servants who were given money by their master and told to do well with it. Two increased the principal and were given more. The third did not obtain an increase and was chastised. He was not killed tho. Nor do I recall that he was beaten. He just did not receive a reward. And of the two who did, one received a greater reward than the other.
If you are an overcomer, the barley, you WILL reign with Christ in the Millenial Kingdom. The wheat, that offering that was mixed with leaven, pertains to the Christians who are NOT overcomers. If you are not, you will perhaps miss that age completely, or at the least will have no position of honor. Would not a person wring his hands and gnash his teeth when he saw that he missed out on some fantastic rewards because he pursued worldly things in whatever age he was destined to live his mortal life in? God is not mocked. His mercy extends to all but not all win the prize that Paul talked about. Resurrection is not a prize we work for. Jesus bought that for us on the cross. It was the Father's plan from the beginning and it is His love for us that caused it. He does not love us BECAUSE of what Christ did. He arranged the cross BECAUSE He loves us. He told the Israelites, "Return to me FOR I HAVE REDEEMED YOU." Notice he did NOT say, Return to me and THEN I will redeem you. When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness. Judgment is not always and only about vengeance or retribution. Israel first had Judges to rule over them under the leadership of God. It also has a lot to do with simple governance. When we are told that we will judge angels, it is my belief that it does NOT mean that we say whether they 'live or die' but we will give them tasks to accomplish, in performing the tasks we are entrusted with.
The last age in His plan to create Sons, will see the harvest of the grapes which is the most severe. The barley is fairly easily separated from its chaff. The wheat takes a bit more. But the grapes must be crushed. Yet the wine is sweet and needed to complete the communion table. There is much one can learn from studying the passages which talk of barley, wheat or grapes. King Saul was a Pentecost king, being crowned on the day of Pentecost. He was mixed with leaven.
These concepts are set forth in three pamphlets by Steven Jones:
God didn't create people because He needed someone to love Him. He created us to shower His love upon us. Tho it may not seem that way for now, I am sure this is true. His plan includes each and every one and thing that He created. We give too much creedence to our 'free will.' God WILL HAVE His way in all His universe and He has stated that ALL WILL BE RECONCILED to Him. He is reconciled to the world now and proved it to us by Christ's death on the cross. Now we are ambassadors to the rest of the world, declaring God's love and mercy.
If you study the laws in the Old Testament, you understand that the oldest [yet many times the oldest was passed over for a younger due to choice] was given a double portion FOR THE PURPOSE of being the caretaker of the rest after the father died. With that inheritance came great responsibility. He didn't receive more so he could buy more things or party more. He became the head of the family. He was to redeem any of his brethren who fell into trouble and had to sell his property and or himself to pay a debt. He was to make sure his brethren had what was needed. In the same way, the overcomers are going to inherit a BETTER place, FOR THE PURPOSE of taking care of the rest AND teaching them until the day when NO ONE will have need to be taught for they will know.
Life in Adam will one day be transformed into life in Christ and that will bring unspeakable joy. As Paul said, Oh the unsearchable riches of God..."
Here are the passages that I feel prove this believe wrong. Please chime in with your thoughts and passages:
Matthew 13:20 Jesus' explanation of the Parable of the Sower:
"The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away."
Mark 13:13 Jesus says:
“All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Galatians 5:1 Paul says:
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."
The betters question would be, how does anyone know they are "saved" in the first place?
Ecstatic religious experiences, ones in which people feel saved, or enlightened, or touched by God, are reported by adherents of all faiths, and even occasionally by non-religious people.
Why do you find it hard to see the difference between Salvation and Rewards? You even seem to separate the two out in your comment above. Salvation is not something earned and Rewards are earned. What could be more simple? My adopted daughter is my daughter and she did not earn that nor can she end that relationship. She can however loose her rewards by rebellion and disobedience. Remember God is our Father once we are saved and that cannot be changed by us. Our rewards that we receive when judged are based on what we have done from the point of Salvation until death or His return for us.
Let's see, I explained my belief that all will be resurrected, some to the glory of serving with Christ and others would either miss the Kingdom age entirely, or live it in a position of much less honor. Our resurrection has nothing to do with our behavior, but on the love and mercy of the Father.
Are you saying if your daughter loses a reward she is consigned forever to the corner for misbehaving?
I WAS confused at one point. I no longer am. We can forfeit some rewards and incur some chastisement for an age or two, but nothing can thwart the plans God has for us in the fullness of time.
My point is that your rewards (not your salvation) is based on your actions alone. No one can snatch you from Jesus' hand. Now you may end up with little when you get there because you did not earn much reward. Some will have much. Not sure I understand your "age" theory. Is that reincarnation?
No. I do not believe in reincarnation.
Ages are periods of time in which God accomplishes His purposes. There was the age before the Law of Moses, the age OF the Law of Moses, the age that Christ ushered in..the New Covenant and there will be at least two more ages after this age is finished. He moves events forward until at the end of this set of ages, what He purposed to accomplished in them will be accomplished.
In the Messianic age, some will be resurrected to reign with Christ. Some will be resurrected to learn obedience during that age. The last age in which God purposed to bring forth His sons and reconcile His creation will be the most difficult for those who rebel but even they will finally be reconciled to Him. After this age and the glorious rest and celebration that will take place due to this victory, I believe that God will begin another set of ages to accomplish something else because I do not see His reconciliation and finishing of His Sons as the only purpose He has. But that is not something that scripture addresses. I just believe that we are the BEGINNING of what He purposes to do.
Well we call it Dispensations and do not believe any will be resurrected to a second chance after this life. You sound like that new age religion that believes all will be saved.
Dispensations and ages are quite similar.
As far as chances at salvation, that is a doctrine that has slipped into church language. There are numerous verses which reveal that it is only by God's choice that one CAN believe the gospel. We are blinded to the things of God and faith is a gift from God. Lydia's heart was opened by God while listening to Paul preach the gospel and she believed. As many as were foreordained to believe the gospel were being added daily unto the first believers. Those who are dead in trespasses and sins can not and do not search for God. He is the shepherd and he searches for His lost sheep. No one searches for God, no not one, nor can they for the things of God are foolishness to those who have not been given the gift of faith.
So how do you consider yourself smarter than the ones who don't believe? Why do you act like you didn't receive that which you received as a gift? Are you boasting then when Paul said no one can boast?
New age? If you do some unbiased research you will find that throughout history there have been a remnant who have held to the Blessed Hope, the affirmation that God does not intend for any to either perish forever or be lost in some netherworld for 'all eternity.'
Of six theological schools in the early centuries since Christ, 4 taught universal reconciliation. One taught conditional immortality and one, in Rome, taught that punishment was eternal for the unbeliever at death. During the Dark Ages, free speech and thought was punishable by death if one disagreed with the controlling powers, but with the advent of Protestantism, universal reconciliation became a recurring theme among many Christians. There are many threads here which quote early Fathers who wrote about the eventual restoration of all men to the Father, and some even went so far as to say that the rebellious angels and Satan himself would be restored.
John Murray an immigrant from the British Isles, a preacher in one of the accepted orthodox branches at one time, came to America early in our history searching for a new beginning after his wife died. He had no intention of preaching ever again but extraordinary circumstances including a temporary grounding of the ship he was on off an eastern American town, led him to a devout man who had prayed for someone to bring the good news of universal reconciliation to his area and after several times of trying to decline the offer, Murray became the father of universal reconciliation preaching in America. There are many scholarly men from much earlier centuries who give intelligent discourses on this glorious gospel. Hosea Ballou and Thomas Talbott and Andrew Jukes are just a few.
It was not early in Church history that the gospel of universal reconciliation was expressly declared to be anathema after many church councils that denounced many other doctrinal issues as heresy. Origen, a staunch 'universalist' was considered a brilliant man and esteemed in the church until he made an enemy of one of the other leaders and his work began to be dismissed. Even then, his stand on universalism was not condemned officially until the 4th century. I'm writing some of this from memory and could be off a little on the dates but not the history. Gregory of Nyssa was considered one of the greatest bishops and he wrote extensively on the eventual restoration of everyone. There are others. A. P. Adams, a man who lived during the late 1800's/early 1900's wrote brilliantly on the subject. Most scholars have now agreed that the words translated into hell really do not mean what modern man thinks of when he sees that word.
Many, many scholars, even some who hold to eternal torment, have stated that the word aion and it's adjectivial forms do NOT mean eternal and 'age' is always the FIRST definition given for that word. In case you didn't know, aion and its forms is the word that is translated eternity and forever in the KJV and similar Bibles. Also, if you did not know, there are occasions in the Bible where it is NOT translated forever/eternity/eternal because the context makes it impossible. If you translate it as age or age-lasting the whole house of cards for 'eternal torment' falls. Some claim that because in some instances aion described God it MUST mean eternal but that is not so. God is active through every age and there are other words which speak of his endlessness.
These are just tips of the iceberg in the debate between those who believe in an eternal hell and those who don't, not even mentioning those who believe in annihilation.
And, tho you can read dozens of threads on which UR's (those of us who believe in Universal Reconciliation) comment, because you seem unfamiliar with our points of view, I will inform you that not all of us who do believe in UR on here or in the world agree on every other doctrine, ok? We are not a cult. On this one issue we band together as those who agree on water baptism or the trinity band together when they may differ on other doctrinal issues. Some of us believe in the trinity, some do not. Some believe in soul sleep, some do not. Some believe in a future kingdom on earth, some believe that all of Revelation and prophecy was finished when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, others think there is still prophecy to be fulfilled, yet do not all agree on what it is. Some believe in some period of chastisement even for believers if they were disobedient or lukewarm, others believe most punishment is suffered here in this mortal life. Some believe in an actual Lake of Fire, most of us believe it is symbolic of the judgment of God, Who has manifested Himself as fire many times in scripture. Fire was used in ancient times to purify objects which were to be used in the service of the Gods. The laver in the temple was symbolic of fire, but man cannot survive literal fire so God gave the priests water for purification instead and interestingly, gold, when all the impurities are removed and melted runs clear and pure, like water.
Just a short lesson on a few facts which have led many of us to believe in a God who is LOVE and DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. A God who does all that He desires in the kingdoms of men and none can stay his hand. A Father who will place all who were condemned to death by Adam into Christ who came to be the Savior of the World and bring true life to all men. The same ALL who were condemned in Adam will be made alive in Christ Can we be faulted for claiming that HE IS THE SAVIOR of the WORLD?
I know that you will object strongly to all this. I did as well when confronted with it many many years ago. But when God reveals it to your heart, there's no denying it.
Object and rail against it as you will. Just As those who hold steadfastly to ET declare...Object all you want, it won't change the truth.
Here are the passages that I feel prove this believe wrong. Please chime in with your thoughts and passages:
Matthew 13:20 Jesus' explanation of the Parable of the Sower:
"The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away."
Mark 13:13 Jesus says:
“All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Galatians 5:1 Paul says:
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."
Everyone is saved, the difference is found within temple design in it's 3 progressive sections, the outer court of Gentiles is where Gentiles go, and the court is not a part of the temple proper, when Jesus sends the lawless to outer darkness, they are sent to the court but are still saved.
The parable of the sower is teaching you the barley havest, and the wheat and the tares is obviously the wheat harvest, and the mustard seed is the feast of Tabernacles where some have become trees instead of grains like barley and wheat, and these trees are honored and celebrated at the feast of Tabernacles where the congregation bares them on their shoulders. A person who has sown his seed in the barley harvest is dying, and that is what a seed must do, and then comes the wheat harvest where you are being born again, but there is also a tare in you. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal,'' You.''
You are body, soul, and spirit and the 3 harvest pertain to you, they are your progressive harvests, you are the temple in 3 sections, and those 3 harvests are for you to conquer.
Jesus speaking of the end of the age is not speaking of some end of the world, it is the days of your personal walk, and when Jesus explains the parable, he MUST explain all 3 at once because how would somebody explain the spirit without also explaining body and soul?
Every single scripture of hell relates to the outer court of Gentiles at the 8th day of the feast of Tabernacles.
Christians don't understand this because they don't know the idioms spoken on the 7 feasts, they don't know the comings and goings of the temple and, or what the priests are doing and saying in the temple on those feasts, they don't know what the congregation is doing and saying on those feasts, and this is why everything is hidden, and there are no parables or hidden speech that is not speaking of the feasts.
Where it says that no liar or murderer, or the sexual immoral will by no means enter the kkngdom of heaven, it is referring to the higher zoe kingdom, it doesn't mean they don't have salvation in the court because we can see these people saved.
Many scriptures show a difference,'' The works of each man will be tested by FIRE, and any man who can stand in the flames with his work and not burn, that man will recieve reward. BUT if any man watches his work burn and he himself burned in the lake of fire, he himself will be saved, but only as one who goes through a fire.''
The betters question would be, how does anyone know they are "saved" in the first place?
Ecstatic religious experiences, ones in which people feel saved, or enlightened, or touched by God, are reported by adherents of all faiths, and even occasionally by non-religious people.
It has nothing to do with ecstatic experiences.
God will directly tell this to this spirit in you. He puts His Holy Spirit in those who are His, and communicates to us through His Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:16 - The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
1 John 5:10 - The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
So few truly understand what salvation is......of course Jesus is central to salvation and its based on what HE DID and not our feeble works which count for nothing. Salvation is being alive in Christ with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. Before Jesus could give us life HE had to remove the cause of death, the original sin of Adam. HIS death on the cross removed the sins of the world, took them completely away and not for the few but for ALL. Yes, Hitler had his sins forgiven......as far as we know He never accepted the free gift offered by Christ to all in simple belief. Faith is the capital of God.....if you are God To find people who believe and hang on your every word is pure gold.......it's what He wants. He says jump we say how high, and go far in the kingdom. Those who get saved are sought out by the Spirit, and He opens the heart enough for God to clear the books just like that person never sinned and get saved for all ETERNITY. That person will stumble and fall like we all do but will never be lost, he will earn a few or a lot of rewards. Those who never believe and reject the free gift of grace til the end will spend their eternity in hell and torments........and regret it for eternity because it will be made plain they didn't need to end up that way. How do we know we're saved? WE HAVE A CONTRACT WITH GOD KNOWN AS THE BIBLE AND HE TELLS US WE ARE SAVED. He says believe the gospel and I believe it. So salvation is not dependent on what we do but the powerful work internally of God that NO MERE MAN can change or nullify. It says in several places we are to rest in our faith, be content and commune with the Lord. So many struggle needlessly daily with their salvation, find somebody who understands grace and put it to rest. Threads like this that introduce doubt are from people who don't understand the word, and they will suffer a loss of rewards if they never correct it.
I know we are saved completely because the book tells us we are ALREADY CITIZENS OF HEAVEN........let that sink in...you aren't spiritually in heaven one day and then given the boot the next.
Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Transforming our body and millions of others to a body like the Lord has happens at the rapture, another hotbed of misinformation.................
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