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Dr. Fruchtenbaum is a Messianic Jew. He graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1971 with a Master of Theology degree and earned his Ph.D. at New York University in 1989 for the completion of his dissertation, Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology, which was the culmination of 13 years of research. Dr. Fruchtenbaum has authored numerous published works and recorded many Biblical studies of keen interest to both Jews and Gentiles. His biography can be read here. Ariel Ministries: Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum
His study on the pre-tribulational rapture of the church can be listened to here. Come and See
Please forgive the brief interruption within this thread, but the moderators just wanted to let everyone know that there is a new Sticky at the top of the forum, which we are requesting that all members please take the time to read. Thanks, and please to resume posting in response to the OP, which is an excellent topic of debate!
I realize that on a forum such as this there are many who are unwilling to listen. That is a matter that is between them and the Lord. I posted this study on the rapture of the church and why it is pre-tribulational for the benefit of those who want to learn. For those who can be objective and listen with an unprejudiced mind. Listen to or read the study, or don't listen to or read it. The choice is yours.
Thanks for posting Mike! If it helps just one person to believe the truth, it will be worth it.
If you're going to refute the OP, the least you can do is offer a reason.
There's a simple reason why ..... the teaching that Christ will reign visibly over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years before the Day of Resurrection and Judgment is unbiblical. See Matt. 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, Luke 23:43, Mark 13:32-37, Luke 18:8, John 18:36.
What is clear from scriptures is that this false teaching has plagued believers for centuries.
1) The Jews were looking for earthly king to re-establish King David's throne
(A) Although the Old Testament never mentions a millennium, Jewish fables imagined a 400-year messianic kingdom based on an apocryphal reference (2 Esdras 7:28).
(B) King Herod was threaten by an earthly king concept of Christ, ...
....... thus the reason for the 2yr and younger male babies being killed
(C) Many Jews stopped following Jesus when it became apparent he wasn't going to be their earthly king John 6:25-71
(D) The charge before Pontius Pilot was that Jesus was proclaiming himself as a earthly king
to which they boasted "“Wehavenokingbut Caesar,” John 19:15
2) About 30 AD ... Acts 1:6 the disciples thought Jesus was going to re-establish the earthly kingdom rule
3) About 50 AD 1 Thessalonians 4 people thought they missed the second coming of Jesus (the originators of "left behind")
4) the clear answer of Jesus: "My kingdom is NOT of this world"
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Historically, it's been considered a heresy by theologians of long ago when stated:
The Augsburg Confession the 17th article alludes to the origin of this error
Luther held the position that Millennialism is a heresy (sermon preached in 1539)
John Calvinwrote that the doctrine of the millenarians is a "fiction too puerile to require or deserve refutation"
There's a simple reason why ..... the teaching that Christ will reign visibly over an earthly kingdom for a thousand years before the Day of Resurrection and Judgment is unbiblical. See Matt. 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, Luke 23:43, Mark 13:32-37, Luke 18:8, John 18:36.
What is clear from scriptures is that this false teaching has plagued believers for centuries.
1) The Jews were looking for earthly king to re-establish King David's throne
(A) Although the Old Testament never mentions a millennium, Jewish fables imagined a 400-year messianic kingdom based on an apocryphal reference (2 Esdras 7:28).
(B) King Herod was threaten by an earthly king concept of Christ, ...
....... thus the reason for the 2yr and younger male babies being killed
(C) Many Jews stopped following Jesus when it became apparent he wasn't going to be their earthly king John 6:25-71
(D) The charge before Pontius Pilot was that Jesus was proclaiming himself as a earthly king
to which they boasted "“Wehavenokingbut Caesar,” John 19:15
2) About 30 AD ... Acts 1:6 the disciples thought Jesus was going to re-establish the earthly kingdom rule
3) About 50 AD 1 Thessalonians 4 people thought they missed the second coming of Jesus (the originators of "left behind")
4) the clear answer of Jesus: "My kingdom is NOT of this world"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historically, it's been considered a heresy by theologians of long ago when stated:
The Augsburg Confession the 17th article alludes to the origin of this error
Luther held the position that Millennialism is a heresy (sermon preached in 1539)
John Calvinwrote that the doctrine of the millenarians is a "fiction too puerile to require or deserve refutation"
The resurrection of all believers occurs before Jesus establishes His Millennial kingdom. Not afterwards as you wrongly implied as being the issue at the beginning of your post. That issue is one of pre-millennialism versus post-millennialism.
The issue concerning the rapture of the church is whether it is pre-tribulational or mid-tribulational or post-tribulational.
The provided study by Dr. Fruchtenbaum shows why the rapture is pre-tribulational.
As for the Millennium, while the Old Testament does not give the length of time of Jesus' earthly reign which He will establish upon His return, the fact that He will have an earthly reign is a major theme of the Old Testament. It is referred to as the Millennium because the Book of Revelation does give the length of time in chapter 20. Six times the length of time is stated as 1000 years. The belief of Amillennialism - 'no Millennium' (the position to which you hold) did not arise until at least the end of the 2nd century and was the result of gross allegorization of the Bible. A literal interpretation of the Bible does not lend itself to Amillennialism.
The topic of this thread and the focus of the provided study is the rapture of the church and that it is pre-tribulational. The topic is not whether there will be a Millennial kingdom.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-26-2013 at 10:00 AM..
The reason people attempt to say "the rapture of the church and that it is pre-tribulational" is because it's under the umbrella of the crass literalism of Millenarians.
The NT era that we are now in is the tribulation and the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 occurs at the same time when Matt. 25:31-46, John 5:28-29 happens.
The reason people attempt to say "the rapture of the church and that it is pre-tribulational" is because it's under the umbrella of the crass literalism of Millenarians.
The NT era that we are now in is the tribulation and the rapture 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 occurs at the same time when Matt. 25:31-46, John 5:28-29 happens.
No, we are not in the Tribulation. Just as the first 69 weeks of years (483 years) in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy (490 years) [Daniel 9:24-27] were literal years which began with the fourth decree by Artaxerxes in 444 B.C. [Neh. 2:1-8] and ended just before the crucifixion of Jesus, so also the 70th week in which will be the Tribulation will be a literal 7 year period of time. The last half (3 1/2 years) of that 70th week period (7 years) is described in Revelation 11:2-3 both as a period of 42 months and as 1260 days.
Seven years is 84 months. 42 months is therefore 3 1/2 years.
Seven years is 2,520 days in a 360 day year (in contrast with our reckoning of a 365 day year). 1260 days is therefore 3 1/2 years.
Revelation 13:5 also speaks of the 42 months measured from the middle of the Tribulation in which the man of lawlessness who is the beast will be seated in the temple and speak blasphemy against God. This is the abomination of desolation of which Jesus warned in Matthew 24:15 that when it happens, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains where as it is said in Revelation 12:14 that they will be nourished for a time and times and half a time (3 1/2 years) from the presence of the serpent.
As stated in Daniel 9:27 the prince who is to come (9:26) will make a covenant with the many (a peace treaty with Israel), but in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years) he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offerings; and install himself in the temple. This is the abomination of desolation about which Jesus warned in Matthew 24:15 in which he referred to Daniel's prophecy.
The Tribulation of Daniel's 70th week is a future event. And the church will not go through it but will be caught up or raptured before it begins.
I do hope that people will avail themselves of the study provided in the OP.
No, we are not in the Tribulation. Just as the first 69 weeks of years (483 years) in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy (490 years) [Daniel 9:24-27] were literal years which began with the fourth decree by Artaxerxes in 444 B.C. [Neh. 2:1-8] and ended just before the crucifixion of Jesus, so also the 70th week in which will be the Tribulation will be a literal 7 year period of time. The last half (3 1/2 years) of that 70th week period (7 years) is described in Revelation 11:2-3 both as a period of 42 months and as 1260 days.
Seven years is 84 months. 42 months is therefore 3 1/2 years.
Seven years is 2,520 days in a 360 day year (in contrast with our reckoning of a 365 day year). 1260 days is therefore 3 1/2 years.
Revelation 13:5 also speaks of the 42 months measured from the middle of the Tribulation in which the man of lawlessness who is the beast will be seated in the temple and speak blasphemy against God. This is the abomination of desolation of which Jesus warned in Matthew 24:15 that when it happens, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains where as it is said in Revelation 12:14 that they will be nourished for a time and times and half a time (3 1/2 years) from the presence of the serpent.
As stated in Daniel 9:27 the prince who is to come (9:26) will make a covenant with the many (a peace treaty with Israel), but in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years) he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offerings; and install himself in the temple. This is the abomination of desolation about which Jesus warned in Matthew 24:15 in which he referred to Daniel's prophecy.
The Tribulation of Daniel's 70th week is a future event. And the church will not go through it but will be caught up or raptured before it begins.
I do hope that people will avail themselves of the study provided in the OP.
and so all this shows is that Dr. Fruchtenbaum is what theologians long stated about such seers:
(They)" fail to recognize figurative or symbolical when it is used results in as flagrant a misinterpretation as to the allegorized non-figurative, direct speech....( by) scoffing and following their ownevil desiresas spoken by Peter [2 Peter 3] " by "'denying the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgment and transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations."
No, we are not in the Tribulation. Just as the first 69 weeks of years (483 years) in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy (490 years) [Daniel 9:24-27] were literal years which began with the fourth decree by Artaxerxes in 444 B.C. [Neh. 2:1-8] and ended just before the crucifixion of Jesus, so also the 70th week in which will be the Tribulation will be a literal 7 year period of time. The last half (3 1/2 years) of that 70th week period (7 years) is described in Revelation 11:2-3 both as a period of 42 months and as 1260 days.
Seven years is 84 months. 42 months is therefore 3 1/2 years.
Seven years is 2,520 days in a 360 day year (in contrast with our reckoning of a 365 day year). 1260 days is therefore 3 1/2 years.
Revelation 13:5 also speaks of the 42 months measured from the middle of the Tribulation in which the man of lawlessness who is the beast will be seated in the temple and speak blasphemy against God. This is the abomination of desolation of which Jesus warned in Matthew 24:15 that when it happens, those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains where as it is said in Revelation 12:14 that they will be nourished for a time and times and half a time (3 1/2 years) from the presence of the serpent.
As stated in Daniel 9:27 the prince who is to come (9:26) will make a covenant with the many (a peace treaty with Israel), but in the middle of the week (3 1/2 years) he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offerings; and install himself in the temple. This is the abomination of desolation about which Jesus warned in Matthew 24:15 in which he referred to Daniel's prophecy.
The Tribulation of Daniel's 70th week is a future event. And the church will not go through it but will be caught up or raptured before it begins.
I do hope that people will avail themselves of the study provided in the OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
and so all this shows is that Dr. Fruchtenbaum is what theologians long stated about such seers:
(They)" fail to recognize figurative or symbolical when it is used results in as flagrant a misinterpretation as to the allegorized non-figurative, direct speech....( by) scoffing and following their ownevil desiresas spoken by Peter [2 Peter 3] " by "'denying the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgment and transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations."
Those statements in post #10 are not a part of the study on the rapture posted in the OP. They are my comments which show that Daniel's 70th week is just as literal as the first 69 weeks of years in Daniel's prophecy, and which refutes your claim that we are now in the Tribulational period which is spoken of in Revelation.
Nor does Dr. Fruchtenbaum claim to be a seer as you imply. Neither do those who teach a pre-tribulational rapture scoff and have evil desires because they teach it as you also imply. You are resorting to attacking those who teach a pre-tribulational rapture in your attempt to refute a pre-tribulational rapture.
I will remind readers once again that I posted the study for the benefit of those who are interested and who can be objective and approach the subject with an unprejudiced mind.
I have no desire to tune this thread into a petty argument with people who obviously have no willingness to be objective.
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