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Old 12-03-2017, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,374 posts, read 20,025,917 times
Reputation: 14068

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
You’ve crossed a line (see bolded). When you resort to personal attack, it’s a sign you have no valid argument. I’m done with you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZwuTo7zKM8
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:16 AM
 
Location: USA
4,747 posts, read 2,330,974 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
You’ve crossed a line (see bolded). When you resort to personal attack, it’s a sign you have no valid argument. I’m done with you.
You stand convicted by your own words of attempting to justify mass murder. I don't know what more you could have to say that that anyone would find credible anyway.
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Old 12-04-2017, 04:29 AM
 
919 posts, read 603,713 times
Reputation: 1685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
can you show me that this psychopathic god exists?
Yes I can.


In the Bible & the hearts & minds of Christians.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:45 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,977,221 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
But they do when they don't agree with what you say and believe.
Not true. I will accept any doctrine that can be supported without Scripture if it fits other Scripture. That is what I did if you could understand it.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:52 AM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,977,221 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
You stand convicted by your own words of attempting to justify mass murder. I don't know what more you could have to say that that anyone would find credible anyway.

If find what he says credible. Only those ignorant of the Bible doesn't find what he says credible.
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:01 AM
 
Location: central Florida
1,146 posts, read 641,145 times
Reputation: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotles child View Post
Hebrews 9:22 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Footnote:NABRE
9:22 Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness: in fact, ancient Israel did envisage other means of obtaining forgiveness; the Old Testament mentions contrition of heart (Ps 51:17), fasting (Jl 2:12), and almsgiving (Sir 3:29). The author is limiting his horizon to the sacrificial cult, which did always involve the shedding of blood for its expiatory and unitive value.

Paul came up claim that Jesus’ crucifixion was necessary to appease God for sins committed against him. Or was it a more acceptable explanation that Jesus was crucified for man's sins rather than executed as an insurrectionist against Rome?

Is demanding a blood sacrifice really the act of a supposedly humane, rational, and merciful God?
It's the Law.

ok, so what's the Law? Most often known as the 10 Commandments, the list is also called Mosaic Law, the Royal Law, the 10 Words and the Law of Sin. It's purpose is to convict mankind of sin. It shows mankind what God considers to be sin.

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:20

First, God lists those acts that are sins and then the punishment for them is given. However, the merciful nature of God is not silent in all this. The Master of the Universe has provided the payment for the penalty of sin in the man Jesus Christ.

The Law specifies in the Torah that although God demands a death in payment for sin, He has created a substitutionary method of paying the debt of sin. In Torah we are told that God would accept the blood (the blood is life, hence the shedding of blood in payment for sin), as payment for sin. This was temporary, however, as animal sacrifices had to be made constantly. It is not possible for sinful man to pay his own life debt.

If it's impossible for a sinner to pay his own life debt and remain alive, then God would have to provide a necessary sacrifice Himself. Thus God had to die upon the cross as payment for the sin of humanity. This death provided a permanent substitutionary sacrifice for sin.

God IS merciful and loving and kind. These motivations led Him to die upon the cross for all those who accept Him. Acceptance is also the LAW. According to Levitical Law, those who wished to sacrifice an animal for their sins had to bring the animal to the tabernacle and kill the animal themselves. Nobody would do it for them. The people had to come. The people had to enter the tabernacle, admit their sin and slay the animal (which represented their own sin). Therefore the Law requires men and women to approach God and ask for forgiveness.

Forgiveness is available, but must be asked for.....repentance must come first, the person presents himself or herself to the Lord and humbly asks forgiveness - which is given only then.

It's the Law.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:23 AM
 
Location: central Florida
1,146 posts, read 641,145 times
Reputation: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
can you show me that this psychopathic god exists?
The pages of the Bible attest to His creation, His acts of mercy, His Laws for salvation and redemption and His plan for humanity. Documentation is acceptable as fact in any court of law.

The lives of those He has saved attest to His existence and His mercy toward mankind. Witness testimony is accepted as fact in any court of law.

Secular historians such as the Jewish historian Josephus, Pliney the younger and the Roman historian Tacitus all attest to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. If the gospels didn't exist, we would know enough about Jesus to establish the events of His day accurately and clearly. An historical record is sufficient evidence in any court of law.

The record of Jesus' life death and resurrection is sufficient alone to prove the existence of God and God's character. Jesus is God and demonstrated His credentials by returning from the dead, as well as His many miracles - including raising other persons from death. There is no other record in all the history of mankind of any man who did these things. All of this documentation would be clearly acceptable in a court of law.

God is not psychopathic - In many cases this attitude is justified by aberrant religious doctrine and writings (The DIVINE COMEDY, for example). In some cases, refusal to accept the goodness and mercy of God is the result of an adamant rejection of the necessity of repentance so as to obtain forgiveness. Sin, in all its forms, must be denied before the mercy of God can be applied. The consequence of failure to accept divine mercy is to drown in one's own sin.

False doctrine of hell.

Certain aberrations of doctrine have crept into the Church and have led many to believe ill of God. The doctrine of hell as eternal torment is one of them. The Bible nowhere says that God tortures people. He will kill out of wrath, but He never tortures. The Bible attests to the second death, which is to be avoided by salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. God has said that He takes no pleasure in death (Ezekiel 33:11)

The first death is physical death.

Everybody dies. Death is an end to all things and it is forever. Death is an event that changes the person involved. At one point a person's life ends and does not continue again - ever. Physical death is forever in the sense that it is never restored. You cannot torture a dead guy.

The second death is spiritual death.

The spirit of those who have not been spiritually regenerated will die the second death. The second death, like the first death, is a cessation of spiritual life. It ends and there is nothing after that. It is forever in the sense that it is never restored. You cannot torture a soul that doesn't exist any more.

The second birth is a joining of the human spirit to the spirit of God - a new spiritual creation. Physical resurrection, promised in the Bible, is the gift of a new body joined with the regenerate reborn human spirit. The old body is forever dead, but a new body is given as demonstrated by Jesus in the closing pages of the gospels.

There is no mention of forever or eternity in the context of eternal torture. The Lake of Fire consumes all who are cast into it. The Bible says even the ashes are consumed. That sounds pretty final to me.

Those who are of the second birth do not suffer the second death. This is the mercy and love of God.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Last edited by Choir Loft; 12-04-2017 at 06:37 AM..
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Old 12-04-2017, 12:26 PM
 
Location: USA
4,747 posts, read 2,330,974 times
Reputation: 1292
Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
If find what he says credible. Only those ignorant of the Bible doesn't find what he says credible.
As I pointed out to Jimmie, anyone who can justify mass murder has lost all credibility. By the same token, anyone who is willing to justify someone who justifies mass murder has also lost all credibility. Such people stand convicted of the most hideous and twisted of thought processes, and of being an anathema and a danger to civilized people. Anyone who believes or finds credibility in what such a person has to say or think is little better than such a person themselves.

I have read the Bible cover to cover, by the way. The difference is, I pay attention and take the Bible at it's word. So if I see that the Bible clearly says that God creates evil, I accept that the original concept of God by the original authors of the Bible were that God was the source of everything, including evil. I do not attempt to retranslate the Bible so that it jumps through the hoops of my personal expectations. And when I see that the Bible says that God is omnipotent (Rev.19:6), and yet He came to repent his actions (Genesis 6:6-7), I can see that the Bible is self contradictory as only a work of human beings can possibly be. The Bible is a wonderful tool for studying cultural anthropology. As a tool for explaining the real world however, the Bible represents the ancient ignorant superstitious views of ancient ignorant superstitious people. Which, given that it was written thousands of years ago, is just what one should reasonably expect to find.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:12 PM
 
919 posts, read 603,713 times
Reputation: 1685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
The pages of the Bible attest to His creation, His acts of mercy, His Laws for salvation and redemption and His plan for humanity. Documentation is acceptable as fact in any court of law.

The lives of those He has saved attest to His existence and His mercy toward mankind. Witness testimony is accepted as fact in any court of law.

Secular historians such as the Jewish historian Josephus, Pliney the younger and the Roman historian Tacitus all attest to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. If the gospels didn't exist, we would know enough about Jesus to establish the events of His day accurately and clearly. An historical record is sufficient evidence in any court of law.

The record of Jesus' life death and resurrection is sufficient alone to prove the existence of God and God's character. Jesus is God and demonstrated His credentials by returning from the dead, as well as His many miracles - including raising other persons from death. There is no other record in all the history of mankind of any man who did these things. All of this documentation would be clearly acceptable in a court of law.

Everybody dies. Death is an end to all things and it is forever. Death is an event that changes the person involved. At one point a person's life ends and does not continue again - ever. Physical death is forever in the sense that it is never restored. You cannot torture a dead guy.
'Witness testimony"? Josephus wasn't even alive at the time. Neither was Tacitus who copied from Josephus. Hardly credible testimony. And no, they do not go into any detail regarding ''the life, death'' of Jesus & if memory serves, they make no mention of any resurrection.
He made just two references to Jesus & noted the early followers BELIEFS, nothing more.
Many scholars doubt it's authenticity altogether.

It's a fact that not a single contemporary historian (& there were plenty of them at the time) bothered to mention any bloke called Jesus nor any religious crucifixion.
The crucifixion itself would've been huge news because the Romans did not crucify people for religious reasons.

The so-called supernatural 'miracles' all came from that immoral grub Saul/Paul.
Christian doctrine is based on the ravings of Saul/Paul who not only had never met the Rabbi, but admitted that he had never heard of his teachings.
The Rabbis students were so incensed (If we are to believe the Bible) that they confronted Saul/Paul & denounced him as a 'false apostle'. Saul/Paul has a real sook about this & goes as far to justify his falsehoods in Rom 3:7. A self confessed liar is hardly credible.

Jesus was an Essene (Some scholars suggest he was their leader & the 'Teacher of Righteousness' mentioned in the DSS) Reincarnation was a basic tenet of Essene doctrine.
In fact, a poster here pointed out that Jews in general believe in reincarnation (a quick google search confirmed this)
Reincarnation was a basic tenet of Christian doctrine until it was declared anathema by the churches supreme authority, the immoral Emperor Justinian. (Why? Because his prostitute wife wanted to have him deified upon his death)

These are facts that are easily verified but the majority of Christians choose to ignore even the possibility because it contradicts the most recent version of doctrine.
Why 'followers' would choose to believe blatant corruptions over their 'Saviours' teachings defies credulity.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:19 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,483,918 times
Reputation: 2070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choir Loft View Post
The pages of the Bible attest to His creation, His acts of mercy, His Laws for salvation and redemption and His plan for humanity. Documentation is acceptable as fact in any court of law.

The lives of those He has saved attest to His existence and His mercy toward mankind. Witness testimony is accepted as fact in any court of law.

Secular historians such as the Jewish historian Josephus, Pliney the younger and the Roman historian Tacitus all attest to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. If the gospels didn't exist, we would know enough about Jesus to establish the events of His day accurately and clearly. An historical record is sufficient evidence in any court of law.

The record of Jesus' life death and resurrection is sufficient alone to prove the existence of God and God's character. Jesus is God and demonstrated His credentials by returning from the dead, as well as His many miracles - including raising other persons from death. There is no other record in all the history of mankind of any man who did these things. All of this documentation would be clearly acceptable in a court of law.

God is not psychopathic - In many cases this attitude is justified by aberrant religious doctrine and writings (The DIVINE COMEDY, for example). In some cases, refusal to accept the goodness and mercy of God is the result of an adamant rejection of the necessity of repentance so as to obtain forgiveness. Sin, in all its forms, must be denied before the mercy of God can be applied. The consequence of failure to accept divine mercy is to drown in one's own sin.

False doctrine of hell.

Certain aberrations of doctrine have crept into the Church and have led many to believe ill of God. The doctrine of hell as eternal torment is one of them. The Bible nowhere says that God tortures people. He will kill out of wrath, but He never tortures. The Bible attests to the second death, which is to be avoided by salvation in the name of Jesus Christ. God has said that He takes no pleasure in death (Ezekiel 33:11)

The first death is physical death.

Everybody dies. Death is an end to all things and it is forever. Death is an event that changes the person involved. At one point a person's life ends and does not continue again - ever. Physical death is forever in the sense that it is never restored. You cannot torture a dead guy.

The second death is spiritual death.

The spirit of those who have not been spiritually regenerated will die the second death. The second death, like the first death, is a cessation of spiritual life. It ends and there is nothing after that. It is forever in the sense that it is never restored. You cannot torture a soul that doesn't exist any more.

The second birth is a joining of the human spirit to the spirit of God - a new spiritual creation. Physical resurrection, promised in the Bible, is the gift of a new body joined with the regenerate reborn human spirit. The old body is forever dead, but a new body is given as demonstrated by Jesus in the closing pages of the gospels.

There is no mention of forever or eternity in the context of eternal torture. The Lake of Fire consumes all who are cast into it. The Bible says even the ashes are consumed. That sounds pretty final to me.

Those who are of the second birth do not suffer the second death. This is the mercy and love of God.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
bible? I am not a bible literalist. there is no reason for me to draw that conclusion based on what we know. A norwhal is a unicorn, a real one. connections to the system around us are real too.
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