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Back when I was still a Missouri Synod Lutheran attending Valparaiso University, I actually had an ELCA guy make an angry comment (during polite conversation) about “those crazy LCMS people.” He apparently didn’t know that I was LCMS, and there was also a bit of beer involved. Once I asked him what was wrong with my church, he angrily picked up a Bible and opened to the (in)famous verse where St. Paul says that women should not have authority over a man in churches. The whole thing got out of control when several other people at the gathering (who also happened to be from various “mainline” denominations joined him in their bashing of the LCMS. It was my first encounter with the love and tolerance of liberal Christianity. And it was one of the major events in my life that lead to my eventual de-conversion from religion altogether.
Some quick thoughts
1) Not all ELCA people hold angry attitudes (as you may know) towards LCMS \ WELS ... I should know since my daughter left WELS for ELCA as one of the reasons you've stated.
2) Like you, I have had my share of piling on in bashing WELS \ LCMS by the tolerant liberal, and it still happens.
3) Your experience at Valparaiso is unfortunate .... course that's me being biased as a WELS and many good number of family\friends are LCMS. Who knows how I would have handled it if I were in your situation.
4) You're still loved and God wants to have a personal relationship with him.
Here's how ridiculous the liberal premise is in real life non-religious scenario.
5 weeks ago I had a serious operation.
+\- 20% of what the surgeon\nurses said was "sound good"
-------------- the balance ---------
+\- 80% warnings - belief every instructions or else expect negative results
........... opioid addiction
........... blood clots
........... infection
........... blood loss
........... side effects from incompatibility of drugs
........... don't believe your feelings when you start to feel better, it's not healed.
........... trust what the surgeon says or else there'll be complications.
........... after 3 months and multiple follow up office visits, I might feel "good"
Guess what, despite religiously believing everything, I developed complications.
I'm ozzing body fluid through the insistion 24\7 for the last 5 weeks and am in pain. The surgeon says it's unfortunate but this will continue for "some time", nothing can be done.
Now just what would liberalism sound like ....
....." Anything that contradicts that 20% premise I discard as untrue"
..... barbarian neanderthals
..... the evolved inner spirit
..... YOUR interpretation, YOUR interpretation!
..... Fundamentalist condemning
Maybe thats what happens when you go against gods plan?
Not to add to the sympathy ... I have to change the post-op gauze pads every two hours 24\7 in addition to wearing a men's depend pants and a women's pad per surgeon's instructions along with pouring hydrogen peroxide over the incision.
I can't walk .... can't sit .... can't lie down for any amount of time.
In the last 5 weeks I haven't had more than three hours of sleep at a time.
Maybe thats what happens when you go against gods plan?
Or God lets rain fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous as he pleases.
I've got a ways to go yet before any non-god fearing friends of mine come here and tell me to blame God like Job's so-called friends did.
Here's how ridiculous the liberal premise is in real life non-religious scenario.
5 weeks ago I had a serious operation.
+\- 20% of what the surgeon\nurses said was "sound good"
-------------- the balance ---------
+\- 80% warnings - belief every instructions or else expect negative results
........... opioid addiction
........... blood clots
........... infection
........... blood loss
........... side effects from incompatibility of drugs
........... don't believe your feelings when you start to feel better, it's not healed.
........... trust what the surgeon says or else there'll be complications.
........... after 3 months and multiple follow up office visits, I might feel "good"
Guess what, despite religiously believing everything, I developed complications.
I'm ozzing body fluid through the insistion 24\7 for the last 5 weeks and am in pain. The surgeon says it's unfortunate but this will continue for "some time", nothing can be done.
Now just what would liberalism sound like ....
....." Anything that contradicts that 20% premise I discard as untrue"
..... barbarian neanderthals
..... the evolved inner spirit
..... YOUR interpretation, YOUR interpretation!
..... Fundamentalist condemning
Sticking to your fundamentalist views of how God responds, you must not be healing properly either as a punishment from God or because you lack faith. In either case, fundamentally speaking, God apparently doesn't love you right now.
But we liberals don't believe God punishes anyone in this life. It is simply a result of the living of life in the world God created. And yet we horrible liberal sinners wish a speedy recovery for you.
Or God lets rain fall on both the righteous and the unrighteous as he pleases.
I've got a ways to go yet before any non-god fearing friends of mine come here and tell me to blame God like Job's so-called friends did.
Job's friends believed Scripture in a traditional fashion. They attempted to get Job to "confess" his sin. But Job refused. Instead he stood up to God and complained he was being treated unfairly. Of course, God put him in his place, but still proclaimed Job to be closer to His heart than the friends.
It's called wrestling with God, something few, if any, fundamentalists have the guts to do. Instead, it's "yes, Lord, I'll be a good boy and not have doubts against anything You say or do." In other words---be like Job's friends.
Now which of those two should have prominence when it comes to following Christ?
You couldn't have spelled it out any better...
Yes, I think you never wrestle with God either, unlike Jacob, whom God gave a new name after the courage he showed---instead of flat out killing him for being presumptuous. Neither did he kill Job for complaining how unfair God was being. He restored Jacob and told all Jacob's friends, who saw God in the traditionally accepted fashion of the OT as One who punished people for their sins and blessed people for their righteousness, that they were in the wrong.
You would make a very fine friend for Job as you never question anything that "god" did in the OT.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 03-06-2018 at 04:55 PM..
Yep. Tentmaker.com authors has led many in the wrong direction.
You know you are talking to a tentmaker.com reader when they start telling you that you worship demons, or that your views look like those of a devious nazis or ISIS terrorists, or they try to convince other readers that you are not even a Christian (no Spirit or no relationship with God), or that Bible is full of errors and written by ignorant, barbaric savages (Hitler was also fond of equating Christianity with savagery). By their fruits you shall know them, and such language seems the fruit of universalism.
They do not realize it, but such comments do nothing but help people see the venom in their hearts and in their views.
I do not want what they are selling, and I hope other readers see the ugliness too and stay away from it.
I suspect your jaded view of tentmakers about whom I know little, was the same reason you intentionally failed to put a link to your "Hitler was a Jesus hater," post.
Likely it came from CARM!
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And it was one of the major events in my life that lead to my eventual de-conversion from religion altogether.
