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Vf6crusier, Paul did not start the church-the body of Christ. Before he himself believed in Christ he persecuted the body of Christ.
Acts 8:1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. 2] Some devout men buried Stephen, and made loud lamentation over him. 3]But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison. 4] Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word.
How could Paul ravage the church-the body of Christ if it did not already exist?
The church-age began on the day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus. This was when the Universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit among believers (with a few exceptions) began. On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples they began speaking in foreign languages, gentile languges. People were being added to the church- the body of Christ long before Paul became a believer.
Peter and the other apostles were proclaiming the gospel and thousands of people were believing in Christ and being added to the body of Christ before Paul himself was added to it.
Yes, Paul was called to take the gospel to the Gentles, and Paul had a greater understanding of the dispensation of grace than the other apostles had, but that doesn't mean that the church-the body of Christ didn't exist before Paul came along.
Did the church begin in John 20:22 or at Pentecost in Acts 2:4?
In answer to your question I have taken some of the arguments from Ryrie’s Basic Theology and added a few comments with a few more verses as well in some places. I would strongly recommend this excellent Theology for its soundness and simplicity.
The church did not exist in Old Testament times but was constituted on the Day of Pentecost (arguments to support the day of Pentecost will be given below). It is distinct to this present time period. Several lines of evidence support this conclusion.
But you are correct concerning the fact that miracles performed by the apostles were for the purpose of validating them. Miracles belonged to the time of the apostles.
Mike 7 or 8 years ago I could have written your post and thought Pentecost was the start of things the same as you. Not anymore. Acts chap 2 is written for, to, and about the people of Israel only. The disiciple is PETER a serious Jew to the end, Pentecost was a Jewish thing, and finally the "BODY OF CHRIST" was still a secret ONLY revealed to Paul in the future. These disciples knew zero about the upcoming time of GRACE, only Jesus knew and He didn't tell anyone but Paul. Yours is the traditional false view that all of the USA believes right now......but in fact the book tells you who Acts 2 is FOR.......
Act 2:22 "Men of ISRAEL, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
It's all FoR ISRAEL......Peter even quotes from the prophet Joel in there, there isn't a single word about the body of Christ or the message of grace and Jesus dying for our sins, was dead and buried and rose to new life on the third day because it had not happened yet. Paul is our Apostle to the Gentiles today and he wrote to the believers of TODAY.........
Mike 7 or 8 years ago I could have written your post and thought Pentecost was the start of things the same as you. Not anymore. Acts chap 2 is written for, to, and about the people of Israel only. The disiciple is PETER a serious Jew to the end, Pentecost was a Jewish thing, and finally the "BODY OF CHRIST" was still a secret ONLY revealed to Paul in the future. These disciples knew zero about the upcoming time of GRACE, only Jesus knew and He didn't tell anyone but Paul. Yours is the traditional false view that all of the USA believes right now......but in fact the book tells you who Acts 2 is FOR.......
Act 2:22 "Men of ISRAEL, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
It's all FoR ISRAEL......Peter even quotes from the prophet Joel in there, there isn't a single word about the body of Christ or the message of grace and Jesus dying for our sins, was dead and buried and rose to new life on the third day because it had not happened yet. Paul is our Apostle to the Gentiles today and he wrote to the believers of TODAY.........
You're claiming that Paul persecuted a church which did not yet exist. The church began with Jews. The first Christians were Jews. Later, Gentiles came into the church- the body of Christ. Jewish believers are no less church than Gentile believers.
Mike 7 or 8 years ago I could have written your post and thought Pentecost was the start of things the same as you. Not anymore. Acts chap 2 is written for, to, and about the people of Israel only. The disiciple is PETER a serious Jew to the end, Pentecost was a Jewish thing, and finally the "BODY OF CHRIST" was still a secret ONLY revealed to Paul in the future. These disciples knew zero about the upcoming time of GRACE, only Jesus knew and He didn't tell anyone but Paul. Yours is the traditional false view that all of the USA believes right now......but in fact the book tells you who Acts 2 is FOR.....
Really, "These disciples knew zero about the upcoming time of GRACE, only Jesus knew and He didn't tell anyone but Paul."
despite God the Holy Spirit inspired John to write (John 1:16-17):
"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Sounds like the owners of the link fulfill Acts 20:30
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI: when I clicked on the link within your post this warning appears from Firefox:
Your connection is not secure
The owner of doctrine.org has configured their website improperly. To protect your
information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this website.
You're claiming that Paul persecuted a church which did not yet exist. The church began with Jews. The first Christians were Jews. Later, Gentiles came into the church- the body of Christ. Jewish believers are no less church than Gentile believers.
The church consisted of Jewish believers "the way" which Saul of Tarsus persecuted......this is true, but that entity is not the same as the "body of Christ" to come later. Those same Jewish belivers were the same ones who destroyed Pauls little home study groups in Asia Minor.......you can see that in Acts 15
Nobody in Jerusalem even knew WHY Jesus died until several mysteries were revealed to Paul by the RISEN Jesus........
The church consisted of Jewish believers "the way" which Saul of Tarsus persecuted......this is true, but that entity is not the same as the "body of Christ" to come later. Those same Jewish belivers were the same ones who destroyed Pauls little home study groups in Asia Minor.......you can see that in Acts 15
Nobody in Jerusalem even knew WHY Jesus died until several mysteries were revealed to Paul by the RISEN Jesus........
Does not even the imaginary satan understand the bible?
Does not even the imaginary satan understand the bible?
Satan of course understands the bible and has a capability far beyond us, but he uses his power to destroy and kill and TWIST scripture for his own ends.......a true arch enemy that will be flicked into the lake of fire by Jesus who can destroy him at any time......but waits til the end of the Tribulation.......
Not in a spiritual sense- they can from an academic or historical sense. Before I gave my heart to Jesus, attempts to read The Bible were like trying to understand a foreign language. Now, God gives me a much better and clearer understanding due to His Holy Spirit living in my heart.
Really, "These disciples knew zero about the upcoming time of GRACE, only Jesus knew and He didn't tell anyone but Paul."
despite God the Holy Spirit inspired John to write (John 1:16-17):
"For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Sounds like the owners of the link fulfill Acts 20:30
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI: when I clicked on the link within your post this warning appears from Firefox:
Your connection is not secure
The owner of doctrine.org has configured their website improperly. To protect your
information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this website.
I have used doctrine.org for over a year with no problems on Win 10 and no such warning at all........
Grace was spoken of on occasion all through the book, but GRACE certainly was NOT in effect during the earthly ministry of Christ. They spoke of visits to the temple and keeping the law which has nothing to do with grace. The law was an earth shaking event when given to Moses, it upended everything. Grace when it was given to Paul was equally earth shattering, but it has been ignored, glossed over, and ridiculed by so called scholars who knew grace eliminated the middle man and distilled things down to the believer and Jesus. No religious leaders, priests or popes required. Just Jesus who died on that cross and someone willing to believe He died for their sins, was dead and buried, and was resurrected on the third day.
Mike 7 or 8 years ago I could have written your post and thought Pentecost was the start of things the same as you. Not anymore. Acts chap 2 is written for, to, and about the people of Israel only. The disiciple is PETER a serious Jew to the end, Pentecost was a Jewish thing, and finally the "BODY OF CHRIST" was still a secret ONLY revealed to Paul in the future. These disciples knew zero about the upcoming time of GRACE, only Jesus knew and He didn't tell anyone but Paul. Yours is the traditional false view that all of the USA believes right now......but in fact the book tells you who Acts 2 is FOR.......
Act 2:22 "Men of ISRAEL, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
It's all FoR ISRAEL......Peter even quotes from the prophet Joel in there, there isn't a single word about the body of Christ or the message of grace and Jesus dying for our sins, was dead and buried and rose to new life on the third day because it had not happened yet. Paul is our Apostle to the Gentiles today and he wrote to the believers of TODAY.........
FWIW and IMHO, in Acts 10 Peter (apparently independently of Paul) is definitely referring to the non-Jews when he says, "...God shows NO favoritism, but WELCOMES those from EVERY nation who fear him and do what is right." when the Holy Spirit came upon the Gentile listeners the Jewish followers of Christ there were seemingly quite surprised "... that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were poured out EVEN ON THE GENTILES..." so that Peter called for them to be "...baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ".
seems that very early on that the non-Jews were also responding in faith to hearing the "good news" preached to them and joining the new "ecclesia"/"gathering"/"Church" of the followers of Jesus the Messiah---the members whether originally Jews or Gentiles of which would eventually be called "Christian" and that "ecclesia" which Paul would call the "body of Christ".
sincere apologies if this response may seem to "bleed into" or "bleed out from" another tread started by "Vf6"
in the peace of Christ.
Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 02-05-2018 at 11:56 AM..
The church consisted of Jewish believers "the way" which Saul of Tarsus persecuted......this is true, but that entity is not the same as the "body of Christ" to come later. Those same Jewish belivers were the same ones who destroyed Pauls little home study groups in Asia Minor.......you can see that in Acts 15
Nobody in Jerusalem even knew WHY Jesus died until several mysteries were revealed to Paul by the RISEN Jesus........
Vf6, your argument puts you in the position of having to claim that the church at Jerusalem, that is, the body of believers in Jerusalem were not a part of the body of Christ until Paul came along. I don't think you really want to go there.
The distinguishing feature of the church-the body of Christ is the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That occurred on the day of Pentecost (with a few exceptions).
As Paul himself stated,
1 Corinthians 12:13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Peter, speaking to a Jewish audience, and before Paul became a believer, said in Acts 2:38;
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Church-age began on the day of Pentecost. Not when Paul came along.
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