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Old 12-15-2017, 06:04 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,861,394 times
Reputation: 2226

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
And the "proper translation" is the Christian translation, is it not? As in the way Christians read three references to Jesus in Genesis 3:14-14,

[13] And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
[14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


despite the fact that Jesus is nowhere to be seen. The references are there though, if one knows how to correctly interpret the Bible! According to Christians. Because they say so.

To that end it doesn't matter how the Jews translate their own book. It doesn't even matter what the original author intended. All that matters is that Christians know and agree on what it means. Because they say so.



Yes we have been over this. It's just that, just because you make a claim, doesn't mean that claim is valid. The Jews have a word for calamity. That word is אָסוֹן. Or it can be associated with (אֵ יד= aid), misfortune.

For example:

Jer.48:
[16] The calamity of Moab is near to come, and his affliction hasteth fast


In the Hebrew Interlinear Bible this passage reads:

Jer.48
[16]near calamity(אֵ יד= aid)-of Moab to to-come-of and evil-of him she hastens exceedingly
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/jer48.pdf

In this case the author originally used both the word calamity and evil in the same sentence. And he clearly does not use the same word to convey the same meaning. Like any author, the author of Jeremiah chose to use the word that most closely approximated his intended meaning. The word the author of Isaiah chose to use in 45:7 was evil (רַע=ro), and NOT calamity.



When I want to tell someone I love them, I say "I love you," and not "I ardor you," even though the meaning is the same. Like most people I use the word most appropriate to my meaning, because I want my meaning to be clear. Attempting to change the word that the author actually used in Isaiah 25:7 to a word with a distinctly different meaning because you do not like the implications connected to the original word is a bit of a charlatan slight of hand magic trick. But we are under no obligation to buy it. Because the word "evil" is there in Isaiah 45:7 in black and white.

The author of Isaiah 45:7 clearly wrote:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

This reading may not conform to your Christian doctrine, but then the OT was not written to conform to Christian doctrine. The author of Isaiah 45:7 used the word (רַע =ro=evil) because that was the meaning he was intending to convey.



Who did create evil then, in your opinion? We need to get this established because the answer to this question often varies from person to person.
It’s RA not RO...
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Old 12-15-2017, 06:05 PM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,861,394 times
Reputation: 2226
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
It's the translation that is true. That's it.

OK. Whatever. Don't believe this refers to Jesus? OK. So bie

Jeremiah 48 aside.......In Isaiah, in the Hebrew, it isn't ro....it was רַע = ra.

That's the actual word that appears in the Hebrew texts of Isaiah.

No one has changed the word used in Isaiah 45:7.

No. He didn't. He used "ra"

He said he creates calamity.
He said that He creates evil...
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:07 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Amazing, isn't it? God actually hates sinners, but he chose to die for them.

Yet, you can't explain why God would die for sinners that he hates. Weird. You choose to ignore it and you make up your own theology instead.

I believe what Scripture says about him. God hates sinners. Psalm 5:5. But God also chose to die for sinners to save them.


Yup. And we are to do the same. Do you think God is just hoping that he will "win over sinners"? That in our sinful hearts, we have the ability to choose him? Despite what Scriptures says about us being at war with God and children of wrath in our natural state?

This is what Scripture says, not me. I'm sorry you don't actually believe it.

Ephesians 2:1-4 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

The beauty of it is that yes--while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8), even though God hates sinners.

And to take it a step further, in Ephesians 2:4-10, Paul finishes that thought and says this:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

See that? Faith itself is a gift from God. Because we were sinners that hated him. Yet, he died for us and granted faith to our unbelieving, sinful hearts. He regenerates us and he redeems us in his love.
Ok, i'm having trouble sleeping. I want address the scripture that you have isolated and twisted it to say something that it isn't. Jacob i have loved Esau have i hated. First of all it does not hate say that God hate sinners, it says that he hated Esau. Now, you believing in orginal sin and according to your belief all are sinners, so it goes without saying you have to believe too that Jacob is a sinner and God hated him too, This being the case that God chooses one sinner over another and loves one and hates the other, makes God a respecter pf persons.

It truly is amazing that you have built this hating God beliefs on 2 scriptures that are not saying what you say they are. If fact there are untold scriptures that state the opposite, scripture that do need to be taken out of context to say something than God loves sinners.

Now, onto God hardening Pharoah's heart. I have said all along exactly what the scripture says about it,i have not taken it out of context by saying exactly what it says, which is, God hardened Pharoah's heart. You on the other have twisted it say to say God permited him to do it. When i am back, i will prove that you are not telling the truth by saying you "all along that it was actually God who hardened Pharoah's heart", how you are now claiming.

Now, to the point you know very well i have been making, which according to your bible is that God perform
his will

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
What chapter and verse says God does not accomplish his will ?. That is a question i would like answered from anyone.
I know there is a poster on here who says it's God's will that he doesn't want any to sin, but this is not necessarily true according to the scriptures, because my bible says that he placed all of us in unbelief or into disobedience that he might have mercy on all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Did God want Pharoah to sin ?. Yes or No?


Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven.

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses


Fancy that God caused Pharoah to sin by disobeying the word Spoken by Moses and Aaron.


Then i went on to say that God caused Pharoah to disobey him, i quoted the scripture to back it up that he did. I showed you too by the scripture that sin is the result of disobedience. So the conclusion being God caused Pharoah to sin by rejecting his word.

Now, back onto the poiny of God hating sinners. I spent close on a whole during my visit here with 2 hristians who both believe the bible is inerrant and infallible. These men have believed for a long, both of them having amaing testimonies, not like your average fundy who always back to what God did plenty of years ago, and there testimonies best now are God sent me a tax refund. These 2 men men have testimonies
to fill a large book between them. I happened to tell them that there is a poster on a forum that believes God hates sinners, they were astounded by such a belief and both said, that is not coming out the scriptures but the heart the one who believes it. We had a poster on here years ago called beloved57, and he was of the same spirit as you.
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:20 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie View Post
Amazing, isn't it? God actually hates sinners, but he chose to die for them. .
It is absolutely amazing that you believe this when it does not say in the scriptures that God hates sinners. He loved them with a far greater love in the state they found themselves in, than the love we have for own children when poor and wrong decisions.

How the hell do you interpret scripture like this to say God hated us even when we were dead in sin?. You have not heard the good news nor understood it.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us Even>>>> when we were dead in sins(HELLO!!)
Eph 2:4-5
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Old 12-16-2017, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,832,457 times
Reputation: 1869
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It is absolutely amazing that you believe this when it does not say in the scriptures that God hates sinners. He loved them with a far greater love in the state they found themselves in, than the love we have for own children when poor and wrong decisions.

How the hell do you interpret scripture like this to say God hated us even when we were dead in sin?. You have not heard the good news nor understood it.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us Even>>>> when we were dead in sins(HELLO!!) Eph 2:4-5
But THAT doesn't allow BF to hate "sinners." Especially when you consider the point that "be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" at the end of Matthew 5 is ABOUT loving everyone as God does. Well, that's not "Christianity," it's only what Christ taught.
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Old 12-16-2017, 12:19 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
Reputation: 7792
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It is absolutely amazing that you believe this when it does not say in the scriptures that God hates sinners. He loved them with a far greater love in the state they found themselves in, than the love we have for own children when poor and wrong decisions.

How the hell do you interpret scripture like this to say God hated us even when we were dead in sin?. You have not heard the good news nor understood it.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us Even>>>> when we were dead in sins(HELLO!!)
Eph 2:4-5


Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
But THAT doesn't allow BF to hate "sinners." Especially when you consider the point that "be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" at the end of Matthew 5 is ABOUT loving everyone as God does. Well, that's not "Christianity," it's only what Christ taught.
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Old 12-16-2017, 12:25 PM
 
18,845 posts, read 6,863,248 times
Reputation: 3534
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
But THAT doesn't allow BF to hate "sinners." Especially when you consider the point that "be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" at the end of Matthew 5 is ABOUT loving everyone as God does. Well, that's not "Christianity," it's only what Christ taught.
I don't. Please stop prejudging me to suggest that I am.
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Old 12-16-2017, 12:26 PM
 
18,845 posts, read 6,863,248 times
Reputation: 3534
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It is absolutely amazing that you believe this when it does not say in the scriptures that God hates sinners. He loved them with a far greater love in the state they found themselves in, than the love we have for own children when poor and wrong decisions.

How the hell do you interpret scripture like this to say God hated us even when we were dead in sin?. You have not heard the good news nor understood it.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us Even>>>> when we were dead in sins(HELLO!!)
Eph 2:4-5
I quoted you Psalm 5:5. But apparently you don't consider that Scripture?
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Red River Texas
22,860 posts, read 10,253,113 times
Reputation: 2290
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It is absolutely amazing that you believe this when it does not say in the scriptures that God hates sinners. He loved them with a far greater love in the state they found themselves in, than the love we have for own children when poor and wrong decisions.

How the hell do you interpret scripture like this to say God hated us even when we were dead in sin?. You have not heard the good news nor understood it.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us Even>>>> when we were dead in sins(HELLO!!) Eph 2:4-5
Yeah, that is pretty cold, '' God hates sinners,'' lol.


ESPECIALLY WHEN A SINNER SAYS IT.


The law is the definition of sin, and BF sure don't believe in keeping the law.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:27 PM
 
18,845 posts, read 6,863,248 times
Reputation: 3534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Yeah, that is pretty cold, '' God hates sinners,'' lol.


ESPECIALLY WHEN A SINNER SAYS IT.


The law is the definition of sin, and BF sure don't believe in keeping the law.
Jesus is the end of the Law for righteousness. Romans 10:4.
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