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You labor under the misconception that for a sacrifice to be a sacrifice it has to be permanent. You think that because Jesus was resurrected His death wasn't actually a sacrifice. But God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. As far as Abraham knew, God intended for him to actually kill Isaac as a sacrifice. And yet Abraham knew that if he had sacrificed Isaac God would have restored him to life so that God's promise to Abraham to make a covenant with Isaac could be kept. In Genesis 17:19 God told Abraham that He would establish His covenant with Isaac for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.
Now Abraham knew that in order for God to keep His promise to make a covenant with Isaac, Isaac had to be alive. But if Abraham sacrificed Isaac then how could God keep His promise unless he restored Isaac to life. Not only did Abraham believe that God would restore Isaac to life after he had been sacrificed, but he apparently expected that God would immediately restore Isaac to life because in Genesis 22:5 he told the men who had come with him and Isaac to the land of Moriah that as soon as he and Isaac had gone over to a spot and worshiped they would return to the men.
And the writer of Hebrews understood that Abraham expected that God would restore Isaac to life if He had allowed the sacrifice to take place, for he wrote,
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18] of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19] He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
Therefore, the sacrifice of Isaac, had God actually allowed it to take place would have been temporary since God would have restored Isaac to life. In the same manner, Jesus' death was only temporary and yet it was a true sacrifice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Why would G-d ask him to sacrifice Isaac when G-d abhored human sacrifice?...G-d did not ask him to take Isaac “as” a sacrifice but “for” a sacrifice...G-d did not tell him to take Isaac there to slaughter him...That was Abraham’s misunderstanding...G-d did not ask Avraham to offer Isaac up as a sacrifice, He just asked him to take him up for a sacrifice....
The Bible states that God told Abraham to take Isaac to the land of Moriah and offer him as a burnt offering (Genesis 22:2). So no, Abraham did not misunderstand God.
Oh, and before you complain that that's not what the Tanack says, it is what the Greek Septuagint says.
Tanack: Gen. 22:2 And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."
Septuagint in English: And he said, Take thy son, the beloved one, whom thou hast loved-- Isaac, and go into the high land, and offer him there for a whole-burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
That word 'ἀνένεγκον' means 'to put upon the altar, to bring to the altar, to offer.' Therefore ἀνένεγκον αὐτὸν means 'offer him.' God told Abraham to offer Isaac for a whole burnt offering, for a sacrifice.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-04-2018 at 06:11 PM..
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead...
(where you are going) there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
I already addressed this objection in post #208. Jesus is both fully God and true humanity. The attributes of His humanity do not mix with the attributes of His deity. As God He is God. As man He is man. It was His human nature that died. Not His divine nature. That is, that as a man His human soul separated from His human body. As God then, He participated in the raising of His human self from the dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
What?
I'll explain.
The Bible states that Jesus is God. It also states that Jesus is man. This means that within the person of Jesus are two distinct natures. His divine nature as God and His human nature. Theologically this is called the hypostatic union of Jesus.
The attributes of His deity do not mix with the attributes of His humanity. Jesus' deity is distinct from His humanity. Nevertheless, Jesus is one person. As a man, Jesus has a body, a soul, and a spirit. These belong to His human nature. But as God, Jesus has eternally existed and has the same divine attributes as the Father.
When Jesus brought His earthly life to an end after His work on the cross had been completed, His human soul and spirit separated from His body in physical death. But as God Jesus was just as eternally alive, as omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient as He had always been. Therefore, when it came time for the humanity of Jesus to be resurrected, the eternal second person of the Trinity participated in the raising of His humanity. Jesus' human body was raised from the dead and His human soul and spirit rejoined His body.
The Bible states that Jesus is God. It also states that Jesus is man. This means that within the person of Jesus are two distinct natures. His divine nature as God and His human nature. Theologically this is called the hypostatic union of Jesus.
The attributes of His deity do not mix with the attributes of His humanity. Jesus' deity is distinct from His humanity. Nevertheless, Jesus is one person. As a man, Jesus has a body, a soul, and a spirit. These belong to His human nature. But as God, Jesus has eternally existed and has the same divine attributes as the Father.
When Jesus brought His earthly life to an end after His work on the cross had been completed, His human soul and spirit separated from His body in physical death. But as God Jesus was just as eternally alive, as omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient as He had always been. Therefore, when it came time for the humanity of Jesus to be resurrected, the eternal second person of the Trinity participated in the raising of His humanity. Jesus' human body was raised from the dead and His human soul and spirit rejoined His body.
I already addressed this objection in post #208. Jesus is both fully God and true humanity. The attributes of His humanity do not mix with the attributes of His deity. As God He is God. As man He is man. It was His human nature that died. Not His divine nature. That is, that as a man His human soul separated from His human body. As God then, He participated in the raising of His human self from the dead.
The Bible does not say his human nature died it says he/Jesus died. It always uses the personal pronouns, so the person of Jesus died, not just a body.
Oh, Jesus had 2 souls, a human one and a divine one. Jesus is two persons not one??????
Now the Son of God is two persons, with 2 bodies and 2 souls???????????????????????????????????
OK, was it his human nature, his human body or his human soul or .... you are beginning to make no sense on this.
Please scriptures that speak of 2 souls and 2 bodies and even 2 natures all at the same time.
The Bible states that God told Abraham to take Isaac to the land of Moriah and offer him as a burnt offering (Genesis 22:2). So no, Abraham did not misunderstand God.
Oh, and before you complain that that's not what the Tanack says, it is what the Greek Septuagint says.
Tanack: Gen. 22:2 And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."
Septuagint in English: And he said, Take thy son, the beloved one, whom thou hast loved-- Isaac, and go into the high land, and offer him there for a whole-burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
That word 'ἀνένεγκον' means 'to put upon the altar, to bring to the altar, to offer.' Therefore ἀνένεγκον αὐτὸν means 'offer him.' God told Abraham to offer Isaac for a whole burnt offering, for a sacrifice.
No it did not...
Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 22
2 And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."
The Bible does not say his human nature died it says he/Jesus died. It always uses the personal pronouns, so the person of Jesus died, not just a body.
Oh, Jesus had 2 souls, a human one and a divine one. Jesus is two persons not one??????
Now the Son of God is two persons, with 2 bodies and 2 souls???????????????????????????????????
OK, was it his human nature, his human body or his human soul or .... you are beginning to make no sense on this.
Please scriptures that speak of 2 souls and 2 bodies and even 2 natures all at the same time.
Jesus is one person, but He has two natures. Since Jesus is both God and Man, and since deity can't die, it was the humanity of Jesus that died. That is in fact one of the reasons why the second person of the Trinity had to become a man, so that He could die for our sins.
Physical death is understood as the separation of the soul from the body. The soul doesn't cease to exist when it departs the body. For the believer His soul simply goes to be with the Lord and awaits the future resurrection of the body. At Jesus' physical death His human soul and spirit left His body which went into the tomb. While Jesus' body went into the tomb His soul went to Paradise until the moment He was resurrected.
I said nothing about two bodies. As for the two natures of Jesus both John 1:1 compared with John 1:14, and Philippians 2:5-6 compared with 2:7-8 show the two natures of Jesus. God and man in one person.
Once again, this is known theologically as the hypostatic union of Jesus and is a very old teaching of the early church in which the church, based on the scriptures sought to understand the relationship of Jesus' two natures.
The Bible states that God told Abraham to take Isaac to the land of Moriah and offer him as a burnt offering (Genesis 22:2). So no, Abraham did not misunderstand God.
Oh, and before you complain that that's not what the Tanack says, it is what the Greek Septuagint says.
Tanack: Gen. 22:2 And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."
Septuagint in English: And he said, Take thy son, the beloved one, whom thou hast loved-- Isaac, and go into the high land, and offer him there for a whole-burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
That word 'ἀνένεγκον' means 'to put upon the altar, to bring to the altar, to offer.' Therefore ἀνένεγκον αὐτὸν means 'offer him.' God told Abraham to offer Isaac for a whole burnt offering, for a sacrifice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
No it did not...
Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 22
2 And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you."
Where does it say “offer him as” here?...
Yes it does. I just got through showing you from the Septuagint which is a Greek translation from the Hebrew Bible that God told Abraham to offer Isaac as a whole burnt offering. Understand the following. There never was one Hebrew Bible. There were a number of Hebrew texts that were in existence in ancient times and the Tanach that Jews use today is simply a standardization of those various texts. The Septuagint at Genesis 22:2 either translates a Hebrew text that was different from the text that the Tanach or Masoretic Text uses or the translator chose to translate the verse as he did. All you are doing when you claim that the Tanach doesn't say something is that your preferred text doesn't say it, or doesn't say it in the way in which you want it to say it.
And need I remind you once again, the writer of Hebrews at Hebrews 11:17 stated that Abraham offered up Isaac. And the writer of Hebrews knew more about it than either you or your preferred go to source, Rashi.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-04-2018 at 09:39 PM..
The Bible is more than the Tanach no matter how much that distresses you. It includes the New Testament. And yes, it states a number of times that Jesus is God. Get over it.
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