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That Jesus is God is clearly enough stated in the Gospel of John. The specific focus of this thread is that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus that Abraham saw as Jesus Himself so stated. The point of this thread is NOT to have people come onto it in order to question whether God is love, or to address the particular commands that God gave to Israel as you have done. Those things can be addressed in their own threads so as not to take the focus off of my intended topic for my thread.
This thread and its intended topic, once again, is solely about the fact that the pre-incarnate Jesus appeared to Abraham as Jesus Himself stated in John 8:56-58 and was so understood as having said by His Jewish listeners.
Take your problems with ''the rest'' of Old Testament elsewhere.
And the quote condemned gave a parallel occurrence for comparison. Does it not have the same authority and character of the first one? Legitimate part of the discussion. Deal.
Some two thousand years before the Word became flesh, Abraham met the pre-incarnate Jesus. Jesus Himself refered to this occasion in John 8:56 when He told the Jews to whom He was speaking that Abraham had rejoiced to see His day, and he saw it and was glad.
John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
The Jews understood that Jesus meant that He had met Abraham which is why they replied,
John 8:57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
To which Jesus then replied,
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
The Lord's appearances to Abraham are mentioned beginning in Genesis chapter 12. Gen. 12:7 says that The LORD (Yhvh) appeared to Abram without stating whether the appearance was in a vision or was bodily. In Genesis 15:1 the word of the LORD appeared to Abram in a vision. The fact that there was an appearance in a vision means that the encounter with 'the word of the LORD' was not a mere auditory experience but was a visual encounter with 'the word of the LORD'.
...
In addition to the references you mentioned, there is good reason to believe Melchizedek, king of Salem, (Gen 14:18) was also pre-incarnate Christ. I am not dogmatic on the point, but it makes sense to me.
Some two thousand years before the Word became flesh, Abraham met the pre-incarnate Jesus. Jesus Himself refered to this occasion in John 8:56 when He told the Jews to whom He was speaking that Abraham had rejoiced to see His day, and he saw it and was glad.
John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
The Jews understood that Jesus meant that He had met Abraham which is why they replied,
John 8:57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
To which Jesus then replied,
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
The Lord's appearances to Abraham are mentioned beginning in Genesis chapter 12. Gen. 12:7 says that The LORD (Yhvh) appeared to Abram without stating whether the appearance was in a vision or was bodily. In Genesis 15:1 the word of the LORD appeared to Abram in a vision. The fact that there was an appearance in a vision means that the encounter with 'the word of the LORD' was not a mere auditory experience but was a visual encounter with 'the word of the LORD'.
There are occasions when the Old Testament descriptions of the 'word of the LORD' refer to a physical appearance of God. Jeremiah chapter one is such an example. In Jer. 1:4 Jeremiah says that the word of the LORD came to him, and then in verse 9 he says that the LORD stretched out His hand and touched his mouth. The 'word of the LORD' and the LORD both refer to the same referent. The word of the LORD here is a visible and physical appearance of God to Jeremiah.
And the same was true when the LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre in Genesis 18:1. Here, the LORD (the pre-incarnate Jesus) came to Abraham along with two angels and Abraham prepared a meal for them. This is the same 'word of the LORD' who had earlier appeared to Abram in a vision in Genesis chapter 15 and who Abram addressed in verse 8 as ''Lord GOD'' (Adonay Yhvh).
Abraham in seeing the LORD, in seeing the ''word'' in human form, saw Jesus.
I KNOW THESE WORDS ARE TRUE... ARE TRUE. BUT YOU THINK IT WAS IN A VISION AND I THINK ABRAHAM WAS STANDING AROUND HIM SOMEPLACE RIGHT THEN OR HAD BEEN EVEN MORE RECENTLY.
Mar 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye, therefore, do greatly err.
I THINK ABRAHAM AND SARAH AND MANY OTHERS MIGHT HAVE BEEN EVEN STANDING THERE WATCHING AT THAT MOMENT.
ALL I ALL WILL SAY IS AINT ANYONE ALIVE THAT WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED ANY OF THEM ANYWAY!! BUT EVEN IF THEY COULD RECOGNIZE ONE ... JESUS HAS THE KEYS OF CREATION AND HE CAN USE THEM !!
I KNOW THESE WORDS ARE TRUE... ARE TRUE. BUT YOU THINK IT WAS IN A VISION AND I THINK ABRAHAM WAS STANDING AROUND HIM SOMEPLACE RIGHT THEN OR HAD BEEN EVEN MORE RECENTLY.
Mar 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye, therefore, do greatly err.
I THINK ABRAHAM AND SARAH AND MANY OTHERS MIGHT HAVE BEEN EVEN STANDING THERE WATCHING AT THAT MOMENT.
ALL I ALL WILL SAY IS AINT ANYONE ALIVE THAT WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED ANY OF THEM ANYWAY!! BUT EVEN IF THEY COULD RECOGNIZE ONE ... JESUS HAS THE KEYS OF CREATION AND HE CAN USE THEM !!
Well, actually, I pointed out that on one occasion the pre-incarnate Jesus appeared in a vision as Genesis 15:1 says, while on other occasions the pre-incarnate Jesus assumed a bodily form as in Genesis 18:1 and Jeremiah 1:4,9.
The pre-incarnate appearances, called theophanies, took various forms, including appearing as a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day as in Exodus 13:21.
In addition to the references you mentioned, there is good reason to believe Melchizedek, king of Salem, (Gen 14:18) was also pre-incarnate Christ. I am not dogmatic on the point, but it makes sense to me.
I've heard that, but I don't have an opinion on it at the moment.
And the quote condemned gave a parallel occurrence for comparison. Does it not have the same authority and character of the first one? Legitimate part of the discussion. Deal.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. You're condemning a quote that gave a parallel occurrence for comparison? And you want to make a deal?
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. You're condemning a quote that gave a parallel occurrence for comparison? And you want to make a deal?
No, Mike, YOU condemned a quote that has a bearing as a parallel appearance to Samuel.
Some two thousand years before the Word became flesh, Abraham met the pre-incarnate Jesus. Jesus Himself refered to this occasion in John 8:56 when He told the Jews to whom He was speaking that Abraham had rejoiced to see His day, and he saw it and was glad.
John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
The Jews understood that Jesus meant that He had met Abraham which is why they replied,
John 8:57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
To which Jesus then replied,
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
The Lord's appearances to Abraham are mentioned beginning in Genesis chapter 12. Gen. 12:7 says that The LORD (Yhvh) appeared to Abram without stating whether the appearance was in a vision or was bodily. In Genesis 15:1 the word of the LORD appeared to Abram in a vision. The fact that there was an appearance in a vision means that the encounter with 'the word of the LORD' was not a mere auditory experience but was a visual encounter with 'the word of the LORD'.
There are occasions when the Old Testament descriptions of the 'word of the LORD' refer to a physical appearance of God. Jeremiah chapter one is such an example. In Jer. 1:4 Jeremiah says that the word of the LORD came to him, and then in verse 9 he says that the LORD stretched out His hand and touched his mouth. The 'word of the LORD' and the LORD both refer to the same referent. The word of the LORD here is a visible and physical appearance of God to Jeremiah.
And the same was true when the LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre in Genesis 18:1. Here, the LORD (the pre-incarnate Jesus) came to Abraham along with two angels and Abraham prepared a meal for them. This is the same 'word of the LORD' who had earlier appeared to Abram in a vision in Genesis chapter 15 and who Abram addressed in verse 8 as ''Lord GOD'' (Adonay Yhvh).
Abraham in seeing the LORD, in seeing the ''word'' in human form, saw Jesus.
So essentially, the disciples were actually seeing GOD!
No, Mike, YOU condemned a quote that has a bearing as a parallel appearance to Samuel.
You're referring to post #4 and the reference to 1 Samuel 15:1-3. First of all, I didn't even directly address it, much less condemn it. Secondly, it is not a parallel passage to those to which I referred. Not all references to the ''word of the LORD'' in the Old Testament imply an embodied appearance of the LORD to someone. 1 Samuel 15:1-3 states merely that the LORD sent Samuel with a message and that the recipients of that message were to listen to the words of the LORD. No bodily appearance or vision is suggested in that passage.
And the purpose of the poster for posting that passage was to point to the particular command that was given in that message, and that is not the topic of this thread.
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