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Notice the word in bold. It is "airei" and, lest we make this too simple for you understand" it has four---count 'em--FOUR definitions (whoever said Greek was a "precise" language????? ) Proceeding from the most fundamental to the most figurative, they are:
1) to lift up or pick up,
2) to lift up figuratively, as in lifting up one's eyes or voice,
3) to lift up with the added thought of lifting up in order to carry away, and
4) to remove.
Now the most tradition translation used is the fourth, "to remove", "to cut away", "to take back".
Thus, in nearly every translation we have:
Quote:
Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he cuts away (takes away), and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
But what if we looked at it from this light, suing the most fundamental definition, ""to lift up or pick up".
Then we have an entirely different meaning: "Every branch in me that does not bear fruit He [lifts off the ground so that it gets more sunlight and air and does not lay in the dirt where insects and fungus can attack it]."
Here's the fundamental question: would a good husbandman simply cut the branch away without first nursing it, dressing it, and giving it a chance to thrive i.e. produce fruit, or would he just look at it and say, "It's no good" and then proceed to saw it off and toss it into the shredding machine?
Some will say a knowledgeable husbandman would instinctively know whether a branch is salvageable or not, but a proper arrival at what Jesus was saying hinges on the most appropriate definition---definition 1, the most literate, or definition 4, the most figurative.
By reading it in the context with the verses that follow John 15:2, I believe it further explains the definition of the word airei.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
By reading it in the context with the verses that follow John 15:2, I believe it further explains the definition of the word airei.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Yes, that is true at the end of the process. But initially, what do you think God does? Does He lift the branch up off the ground (to lift up) or does He cut it off?
Put another way, do you think it's at all possible we've been misreading this verse all this time?
One way that helps me figure out these types of things out is to get a concordance and see how that same word was rendered in other scriptures. That word is used 8 times in the NT an each time it is translated "take". GNT Concordance: ????? (airei) ? 8 Occurrences The word lifted would not fit the context of the other verses. The idea of "lifted up" would also contradict the verse 15:6 which states that unfruitful branches are "thrown into the fire and burned". This would denote final judgement.
As for the idea of whether God would just toss someone away for not bearing fruit without helping them first, you need to look at other verses that talk about how God provides us. First of all, God sent Jesus to die for our sins so that "whoever believes in the Son will have everlasting life" The Bible tells us that God has sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin. God has also provided his written word so that faith can come to those who hear the word of Christ. Rom 10:17 And he has provided creation which speaks of God's glory. Ps 19 Despite these efforts, many will still not believe due to their hardened hearts. “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” Isaiah 65
The Bible also points out that Once someone repents and believes, God sends His Holy Spirit to dwell within us to teach us, guide us, comfort us and to begin the work of sanctifying us. God has also provided His written Word and the fellowship of other believers to nourish us, encourage us, teach us, etc. Because of this, new believers will often experience a dramatic change in thought & actions which is yet another testimony to unbelievers.
God has provided more than enough for any "branch" to thrive. An unrepentant man is without an excuse. Our sin debt has already been paid for on the cross - a gift that NONE of us deserve. As sinners, we ALL deserve death. If a branch is cut away, it only due to a hardened heart and that person's stubborn refusal to accept the free gift of salvation.
I have been in church services where they opened a 'Daniel Websters' to read the definition of an English word used in a translation. Completely ignoring that God gave words and thoughts to holy men to write, using their vocabulary.
I prefer to look at every usage of a Hebrew or Greek word, read each usage in the context, and allow the context to define it's usage. Allowing God's Word to define the phrases that are used in itself.
Commonly the printed Greek definitions were formed by how that word was used in other writings, outside of the Bible. Those definitions were not formed by an exhaustive examination of how the phrase was used within the Bible from God's usage.
'to know' used in the Bible has a distinct different usage from how it is used outside of the Bible.
'Jesus Christ' is a phrase used in specific contexts, different from where the phrase 'Christ Jesus' is used. These two phrases have different specific usages and different meanings.
Only a 'Workman of the Word' will see the differences.
One way that helps me figure out these types of things out is to get a concordance and see how that same word was rendered in other scriptures. That word is used 8 times in the NT an each time it is translated "take". GNT Concordance: ????? (airei) ? 8 Occurrences The word lifted would not fit the context of the other verses. The idea of "lifted up" would also contradict the verse 15:6 which states that unfruitful branches are "thrown into the fire and burned". This would denote final judgement.
As for the idea of whether God would just toss someone away for not bearing fruit without helping them first, you need to look at other verses that talk about how God provides us. First of all, God sent Jesus to die for our sins so that "whoever believes in the Son will have everlasting life" The Bible tells us that God has sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin. God has also provided his written word so that faith can come to those who hear the word of Christ. Rom 10:17 And he has provided creation which speaks of God's glory. Ps 19 Despite these efforts, many will still not believe due to their hardened hearts. “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” Isaiah 65
The Bible also points out that Once someone repents and believes, God sends His Holy Spirit to dwell within us to teach us, guide us, comfort us and to begin the work of sanctifying us. God has also provided His written Word and the fellowship of other believers to nourish us, encourage us, teach us, etc. Because of this, new believers will often experience a dramatic change in thought & actions which is yet another testimony to unbelievers.
God has provided more than enough for any "branch" to thrive. An unrepentant man is without an excuse. Our sin debt has already been paid for on the cross - a gift that NONE of us deserve. As sinners, we ALL deserve death. If a branch is cut away, it only due to a hardened heart and that person's stubborn refusal to accept the free gift of salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper
Gotta ask who made these definitions?
I have been in church services where they opened a 'Daniel Websters' to read the definition of an English word used in a translation. Completely ignoring that God gave words and thoughts to holy men to write, using their vocabulary.
I prefer to look at every usage of a Hebrew or Greek word, read each usage in the context, and allow the context to define it's usage. Allowing God's Word to define the phrases that are used in itself.
Commonly the printed Greek definitions were formed by how that word was used in other writings, outside of the Bible. Those definitions were not formed by an exhaustive examination of how the phrase was used within the Bible from God's usage.
'to know' used in the Bible has a distinct different usage from how it is used outside of the Bible.
'Jesus Christ' is a phrase used in specific contexts, different from where the phrase 'Christ Jesus' is used. These two phrases have different specific usages and different meanings.
Only a 'Workman of the Word' will see the differences.
There's so much at the link provided, more than the mods would let me quote, that answers many of the questions posed. I think it likely, knowing how God loves all His children, that He gives them every chance in this life to bear fruit before "cutting them off" and tossing them onto the dead wood pile. That would include "lifting them up" to make sure they got every last ray of sunshine before the branch was thrown into the fire to be burned.
I have seen these scriptures as gifts of the Holy Spirit....Cutting of branches is; Were a gift of the Lord for service is left not used and the Lord find no use for the gift for this minister..... Then Jesus will remove the anointing and send it back to Heaven for other uses , were if the minister were try to use to lost anointing he would come up lack of Holy Spirit in that gift........ Were the pruning of the Lord is to a minister for Jesus would pray for more of the Lord , then the Lord would prune the errors away , which usually under the authority of the dark spirit..... Jesus Spirit will teach a minister `You can not do this, you can not think that, You must do this, and do that ``...removing the authority of the errors that have become tolerated over the years so this minister will have more of the Lord Jesus authority to bear more works to the Glory of God....
Notice the word in bold. It is "airei" and, lest we make this too simple for you understand" it has four---count 'em--FOUR definitions (whoever said Greek was a "precise" language????? ) Proceeding from the most fundamental to the most figurative, they are:
1) to lift up or pick up,
2) to lift up figuratively, as in lifting up one's eyes or voice,
3) to lift up with the added thought of lifting up in order to carry away, and
4) to remove.
Now the most tradition translation used is the fourth, "to remove", "to cut away", "to take back".
Thus, in nearly every translation we have:
But what if we looked at it from this light, suing the most fundamental definition, ""to lift up or pick up".
Then we have an entirely different meaning: "Every branch in me that does not bear fruit He [lifts off the ground so that it gets more sunlight and air and does not lay in the dirt where insects and fungus can attack it]."
Here's the fundamental question: would a good husbandman simply cut the branch away without first nursing it, dressing it, and giving it a chance to thrive i.e. produce fruit, or would he just look at it and say, "It's no good" and then proceed to saw it off and toss it into the shredding machine?
Some will say a knowledgeable husbandman would instinctively know whether a branch is salvageable or not, but a proper arrival at what Jesus was saying hinges on the most appropriate definition---definition 1, the most literate, or definition 4, the most figurative.
Jesus is referring to our sins.. the branches that don't bear fruit. These are removed by the power of God's Divine Love that is delivered to our souls by God's Holy Spirit. As we receive more and more Love, we bear more fruit... which are God's blessings. God's Divine Love brings to our souls "light" and it removes our sins "darkness."
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) Proceeding from the most fundamental to the most figurative, they are:
