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"I’d like to see if anyone can find fault with these verses and the logic behind them in proving, through biblical texts, that hell absolutely must be temporary and for the purpose of saving everyone. I’m just trying to test my arguments so I can refine them and toss out any that are no good. I need to find the chinks in the armor since I’ll eventually write a book on this subject.
The Bible has a few verses that describe God’s nature. I wouldn’t call this proof-texting because these are about God’s nature, which is always the same no matter what the context.
1 - …for God all things are possible (in reference to saving mankind). (Matt 19:26)
2 - …he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
3 - The LORD does whatever pleases him in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all its deep regions. (Ps 135:6)
4 - For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. (Phil 2:13)
5 - A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps. (Pro 16:9)
Let’s take this step-by-step:
We’re told that God’s will is that none perish but that all come to repentance (ie. - turn from their sinful ways). (2 Pet 3:9)
Then we’re told that He does all His pleasure in heaven and on earth, in the seas and its deep regions (a figurative saying meant to show that He controls every little thing that happens everywhere). (Ps 135:6)
And we find that for God, ALL things are possible (and in that verse, it’s specifically talking about saving men’s souls). (Matt 19:26)
Then we’re told that He produces in us both the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him. (Phil 2:13)
And finally, Proverbs tells us, “A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps.” (Pro 16:9)
In short, if you believe all of those verses are accurate about Him, it means He absolutely must save all of mankind or the Bible is inaccurate about His nature, and He is not truly “Love” as the Bible says. Why would He go against His stated will and make people suffer in Hell forever (perish) when we’re told by Him (Jesus, specifically) that He can do all things (specifically, save someone whom it seems is impossible to save)? Is He just choosing not to save everyone for kicks and giggles? Does He make people suffer for eternity in hell to “show His glory,” as the Calvinist says, which makes absolutely zero sense being that it shows exactly the opposite? I really don’t think so. I think eternal hell doctrine completely destroys the integrity of the Bible and God’s character.
Is there any way to disprove that argument, or is that a pretty sound argument to prove that hell cannot be eternal and that God saves everyone?"
END QUOTE
“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that the Son may glorify you — 2 just as you gave him authority over all mankind, so that he might give eternal life to all those whom you have given him. 3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah.
4 “I glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify me alongside yourself. Give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed.
6 “I made your name known to the people you gave me out of the world. They were yours, you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you, 8 because the words you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them. They have really come to know that I came from you, and they have come to trust that you sent me.
9 “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given to me, because they are yours. 10 Indeed, all I have is yours, and all you have is mine, and in them I have been glorified. 11 Now I am no longer in the world. They are in the world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, guard them by the power of your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. 12 When I was with them, I guarded them by the power of your name, which you have given to me; yes, I kept watch over them; and not one of them was destroyed (except the one meant for destruction, so that the Tanakh might be fulfilled). 13 But now, I am coming to you; and I say these things while I am still in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.
14 “I have given them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world — just as I myself do not belong to the world. 15 I don’t ask you to take them out of the world, but to protect them from the Evil One. 16 They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. 17 Set them apart for holiness by means of the truth — your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 On their behalf I am setting myself apart for holiness, so that they too may be set apart for holiness by means of the truth.
20 “I pray not only for these, but also for those who will trust in me because of their word, 21 that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are united with me and I with you, I pray that they may be united with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 The glory which you have given to me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, just as we are one — 23 I united with them and you with me, so that they may be completely one, and the world thus realize that you sent me, and that you have loved them just as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am; so that they may see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has not known you, but I have known you, and these people have known that you sent me. 26 I made your name known to them, and I will continue to make it known; so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I myself may be united with them.”
some of you are steppin in it so deep and you have no idea!
and it is too bad you were not just a little afraid ..
in Hinds feet on high places it is "Much Afraid" that makes it to the summit to be healed. Much Afraid relies on her helpers to lead her there . we can never make it alone..
she would never make it alone.
If you had a child who was making all kinds of bad choices and whose "free will" was out of control, and you could see they were on a path of destruction (drugs, etc.), wouldn't you violate their choices and do everything in your power, including forms of disciple and compulsion to affect changes to their will?
and it is violating their will ? to get them to understand a new choice the will is capable of making? what ?
maybe you should look up the word violating someone..
he really didn't violate Jonah , jonah was a prophet because he wanted to be a prophet for God.. .. Jonah just didn't want to do that thing. because he didn't want to look like a fool.. or give what appears to be a false prophetic word.. .
because when it comes to guilt and forgiveness it could and will be unpredictable and even Abraham knew it /// it was even unpredictable for Sodom and Gomorrah that is why God took a trip there to see for himself.
Jonah knew that God would forgive if He could.. the outcome was completely dependent on the will of the people of Ninevah.
who wants to be the prophet who gives those kind of prophesies?
NO ONE! I mean Jonah was stuck between going swimming with the fishes or being stoned for being a false or hated prophet. and yes he ran. drowning looks better than stoning anyday ... now do we have volunteers?
now days it is maybe a tiny bit easier.. usually people are not stoned.. well yet but the two witnesses this way comes and mankind didn't start doing that kind of thing to people that day.. ....
“Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that the Son may glorify you — 2 just as you gave him authority over all mankind, so that he might give eternal life to all those whom you have given him. 3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah.
4 “I glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify me alongside yourself. Give me the same glory I had with you before the world existed.
6 “I made your name known to the people you gave me out of the world. They were yours, you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me is from you, 8 because the words you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them. They have really come to know that I came from you, and they have come to trust that you sent me.
9 “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given to me, because they are yours. 10 Indeed, all I have is yours, and all you have is mine, and in them I have been glorified. 11 Now I am no longer in the world. They are in the world, but I am coming to you. Holy Father, guard them by the power of your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. 12 When I was with them, I guarded them by the power of your name, which you have given to me; yes, I kept watch over them; and not one of them was destroyed (except the one meant for destruction, so that the Tanakh might be fulfilled). 13 But now, I am coming to you; and I say these things while I am still in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves.
14 “I have given them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world — just as I myself do not belong to the world. 15 I don’t ask you to take them out of the world, but to protect them from the Evil One. 16 They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. 17 Set them apart for holiness by means of the truth — your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 On their behalf I am setting myself apart for holiness, so that they too may be set apart for holiness by means of the truth.
20 “I pray not only for these, but also for those who will trust in me because of their word, 21 that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are united with me and I with you, I pray that they may be united with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 The glory which you have given to me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, just as we are one — 23 I united with them and you with me, so that they may be completely one, and the world thus realize that you sent me, and that you have loved them just as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am; so that they may see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has not known you, but I have known you, and these people have known that you sent me. 26 I made your name known to them, and I will continue to make it known; so that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I myself may be united with them.”
awesome PIN! a little scary too. truth so filled with things we don't understand..
START QUOTE:
"I’d like to see if anyone can find fault with these verses and the logic behind them in proving, through biblical texts, that hell absolutely must be temporary and for the purpose of saving everyone. I’m just trying to test my arguments so I can refine them and toss out any that are no good. I need to find the chinks in the armor since I’ll eventually write a book on this subject.
The Bible has a few verses that describe God’s nature. I wouldn’t call this proof-texting because these are about God’s nature, which is always the same no matter what the context.
1 - …for God all things are possible (in reference to saving mankind). (Matt 19:26)
2 - …he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Pet 3:9)
3 - The LORD does whatever pleases him in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all its deep regions. (Ps 135:6)
4 - For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him. (Phil 2:13)
5 - A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps. (Pro 16:9)
Let’s take this step-by-step:
We’re told that God’s will is that none perish but that all come to repentance (ie. - turn from their sinful ways). (2 Pet 3:9)
Then we’re told that He does all His pleasure in heaven and on earth, in the seas and its deep regions (a figurative saying meant to show that He controls every little thing that happens everywhere). (Ps 135:6)
And we find that for God, ALL things are possible (and in that verse, it’s specifically talking about saving men’s souls). (Matt 19:26)
Then we’re told that He produces in us both the desire and the ability to do what pleases Him. (Phil 2:13)
And finally, Proverbs tells us, “A man chooses in his heart, but the LORD directs his steps.” (Pro 16:9)
In short, if you believe all of those verses are accurate about Him, it means He absolutely must save all of mankind or the Bible is inaccurate about His nature, and He is not truly “Love” as the Bible says. Why would He go against His stated will and make people suffer in Hell forever (perish) when we’re told by Him (Jesus, specifically) that He can do all things (specifically, save someone whom it seems is impossible to save)? Is He just choosing not to save everyone for kicks and giggles? Does He make people suffer for eternity in hell to “show His glory,” as the Calvinist says, which makes absolutely zero sense being that it shows exactly the opposite? I really don’t think so. I think eternal hell doctrine completely destroys the integrity of the Bible and God’s character.
Is there any way to disprove that argument, or is that a pretty sound argument to prove that hell cannot be eternal and that God saves everyone?"
END QUOTE
I find it is true biblical hell is Not eternal. According to Revelation 20:13-14 after everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' ( meaning resurrected out of biblical hell ) then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
Also, if biblical hell was eternal then Jesus would still be in hell - Acts 2:27
In other words, the day Jesus died he went to biblical hell until his God resurrected Jesus out of hell.
Since Jesus, and the old Hebrew Scriptures, teach unconscious sleep in death, then the dead in hell are in a sleep-like state ( Not burning state) until resurrected out of biblical hell. - Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14.
ALL who ' repent ' can be saved. We are all given two (2) choices at 2nd Peter 3:9 to repent or perish ( be destroyed )
ALL the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' ( annihilated) according to Psalm 92:7
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
So, that is why Matthew 20:28 says MANY are saved and does Not say everyone.
Through Jesus, then God will bring to ruin those ruining Earth as per Revelation 11:18 B.
I find it is true biblical hell is Not eternal. According to Revelation 20:13-14 after everyone in the Bible's hell is ' delivered up ' ( meaning resurrected out of biblical hell ) then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
Also, if biblical hell was eternal then Jesus would still be in hell - Acts 2:27
In other words, the day Jesus died he went to biblical hell until his God resurrected Jesus out of hell.
Since Jesus, and the old Hebrew Scriptures, teach unconscious sleep in death, then the dead in hell are in a sleep-like state ( Not burning state) until resurrected out of biblical hell. - Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14.
ALL who ' repent ' can be saved. We are all given two (2) choices at 2nd Peter 3:9 to repent or perish ( be destroyed )
ALL the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' ( annihilated) according to Psalm 92:7
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.
So, that is why Matthew 20:28 says MANY are saved and does Not say everyone.
Through Jesus, then God will bring to ruin those ruining Earth as per Revelation 11:18 B.
The creed Jesus ascended to hell is a bad interpretation. It is hades or the place where the soul goes after death.
Hell is real and permanent. You are jumping to wild assumptions trying to justify your faith.
Well if you really believe that then lets see what the scriptures state about the aion which is translated in English as eternal, forever, everlasting etc.
Scripture testifies that the aions have a beginning.
*
Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds/aions.
*
The aions were MADE.
*
1 Corinthians 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world/aion unto our glory:
* BEFORE the aion.
*
*
*
2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionios began,
*
* BEFORE the aionios BEGAN.
*
* Scripture testifies that the aions have an end.
*
Hebrews 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world/aion hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
* The aion ENDS
*
*
1 Corinthians 10:11
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world/aion are come.
* The aion ENDS
*
*
Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world/aion?
*
* The aion ENDS
Thus we can see that using scripture to interpret scripture shows us that the aion has a beginning and the aion has an end.
So as scripture tells us the aions have a beginning and an end and scripture interprets scripture then you better reevaluate your belief in eternal torment because as of right now you are saying the scriptures are wrong to tell us the aion comes to an end because the doctrine of eternal torment teaches the aion is endless.
So are you going to believe the scriptures that the aions end or a doctrine that tell you differently?
I was taught the same thing. But I no longer believe that scripture interprets scripture. I would say that the Spirit of God interprets scripture. If all you need is scripture to interpret scripture then an atheist can know the things of God. But he cannot. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. At any rate, that's another discussion. I am happy to try to use scripture to interpret scripture.
Whether they translated it as one word "forever" or two words "for ever" is not relevant. That is the whim of the translators. In Hebrew it is one word olam. My reason for quoting that passage was to show that olam does not imply infinite duration.
And if there is no context? When it says in Daniel 12: 1 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to life olam, and some to shame and contempt olam." there is no context to tell you whether the shame is temporary or permanent. Why do you assume the worst?
Saying "for sure... until" makes sense. Saying "for ever.. until" makes no sense in English.
It was not an eternal punishment yet it was an olam punishment . So lets not assume that olam punishments are eternal punishments.
They are all based on assuming that aionios or olam punishments are eternal when we just saw an olam punishment that was temporary.
Where did you get that God will not interfere with that? God is the God of your will and my will. A person born of God is not born because of his free will. There are not some "good" free wills and some "bad" free wills, where the "good" free wills freely receive Jesus and the "bad" free wills freely reject Jesus and go to hell. How is it that you believe some freely choose Jesus when there is none good and none seeking God?
My belief is not about compelling anyone to receive Jesus. Why is it that you see only these two alternatives:
(a) Some of the NONE GOOD freely choose Jesus while the rest of the NONE GOOD reject Jesus.
(b) We are compelled to choose Jesus like a robot.
What about a third alternative: Being taught of God. Learning the error of your way. Being convinced.
Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Would you say God refers to them as having "a stony heart" while they are freely choosing and loving God? Or is it because they are freely rejecting God? Yet in that state of rejecting God, God promises He will at some point give them a heart of flesh by which God will cause them to keep His word. Wouldn't you say that once they receive this new heart and are walking in God's statutes that they love God? I think so. I don't see that God is waiting for them to "freely choose" Him. God is Lord over man's will.
Yet I don't believe that what God is referring to here is God compelling them to love him, or making them robots. God does not simply rip out their evil heart and drop a new heart that loves God. Rather, God teaches them, corrects them, convinces them, even if in part by harsh corrective judgments.
Yes, choices have consequences. No, paying for sins cannot only be done in hell. See my comments below on Lamentations 3. They were not forgiven. They were paying for their sins. They were not in hell.
Where do you get the idea that judgment cannot be corrective? There are many judgments in scripture that are corrective. At any rate, we are talking about a principal: Does God honor peoples' "free will" choices or does God intervene, correct, sometimes harshly.
Yes, those who do not belong to God are not His children. But that passage says nothing about every person spending eternity with their father. That passage says that the seed of Abraham (children of God) are known by their actions. Jesus identified them as children of the devil because they wanted to murder him. Likewise, Saul (later Paul) was a child of the devil at that time he was seeking to murder believers. Yet he did not and will not spend eternity with his father at the time, the devil. He was born again and became a child of God.
All were at one time children of the devil, until such time as they were born again.
Those are all based on exactly one thing. They are based on the translation of aionios or olam as "everlasting", "eternal", or "forever". Yet there are translators who disagree and translate them otherwise. For example Young's Literal translation routinely translates aionios as "age during" in the passages you are referring to. Strongs and translators are not "the word of God" are they? They are men with opinions.
So what basis can I use to discern who is right?
a) There are examples in scripture where aionios and olam are not everlasting at all. Therefore any claim that these words are synonymous with "everlasting" or "forever" are simply wrong.
b) There are Greek scholars and translators who disagree that these words mean "everlasting" or "forever".
c) Some early Christians like St. Gregory of Nyssa, who were fluent in biblical Greek and even sometimes quoted some of these "eternal" verses you refer to, did not believe in everlasting hell. Were they deluded, or perhaps they knew their native language better than some modern scholars.
d) There are other passages not using any of these words, that explain the very nature of God and how He deals with sin and sinners that contradict the concept of eternal hell.
For example, in Lamentation 3, the prophet Jeremiah asks this question:
Lamentations 3:39
Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
So the subject of this chapter is suffering he and his people were enduring as punishment for their sins. What else does the prophet say about God?
Lamentations 3:31
For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
So I conclude from this passage an absolute truth about God:
- God WILL punish sin.
- God WILL afflict and cause grief.
- God WILL NOT cast off forever the children of men as punishment for their sin.
And what is Christian hell? It is God casting off men forever as punishment for their sin.
So should I trust Strongs and translators who say by their translations that God WILL cast the children of men off forever as punishment for their sins or should I trust the prophet's simple words?
In Matthew Jesus commands us to love our enemies so that we will be like our heavenly Father. Yet Strongs etc. has convinced you that God will cast His enemies into hell and there they will suffer immensely for all eternity. Can you think of anything more opposite to love? I guess you don't see a massive contradiction there, but I do.
Hi Bob, good to see you posting again, it has been awhile.
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