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No, you twisted a few, none saying what you think, if read literally.
Matt. 25:41, 46
Mark 9:44
Luke 16:19-31
John 3
Daniel 12:2
The parable of the Weddng Feast
The parable of the Weeds
Matt. 25:41, 46
KJV
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:*42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:*43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.*44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?*45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did*it*not to one of the least of these, ye did*it*not to me.*46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
YLT
41Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;*42for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;*43a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.*44‘Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?*45‘Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.*46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’
So which translation is more accurate Jimmie?
I have already shown you that the aion according to the scriptures END. So we can, because the scriptures state, the aion END do away with the eternal/without end translation. That is if you agree with the scriptures that tell us the aion ENDS.
If you do not agree the aion ENDS please tell me why?
Here is a small article I wrote awhile back when Matt Slick used these same scriptures to say universalism is a lie.
MUCH MORE then aionios life
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Many of God people believe aionios life is the fullness of life in Christ, and because of this error they have a hard time answering the eternal punishment and eternal life scriptures.
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They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.
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But we need not change the meaning of aionios in such a fashion to understand Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being. For there are other words in scripture to show forth Gods eternal (as in without beginning and without end) being.
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Before I show how God is eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end lets look at a few more scriptures that will help the reader understand aionios only means age-lasting and is of limited duration.
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The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.
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Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.
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The reader can see here that both the hills and Gods ways are everlasting. So if olam or aionios in the Greek means without beginning and without end then the hills had no beginning and will have no end, but we know that the hills have a beginning and we know that they have an end because they bow down.
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Now the only way for those who believe olam means eternal can get around this is to say olam means one thing in the first part of the sentence and means something else in the second part of the sentence. *
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Psalm 41:13
13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
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Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
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Here the reader can see God is from olam/aionios to olam/aionios.
If olam/aionios means without beginning and without end then these scripture makes absolutely no sense, for can there be more then ONE eternity? Hardly, so the reader cans see olam/aionios is used in the limited sense of age-lasting.
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So the reader can see olam/aionios means age-lasting and is always used in a limited sense.
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But some will say if it is always used in a limited sense then that would mean aionios life is also limited in duration. This is CORRECT, aionios life is of limited duration.
I already know many will say that’s blaspheme, but bare with me for a few more moments if you will.
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Lets go back to Ps.90 for a moment and read it again.
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Psalm 90:1-2
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
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We have already seen olam/aionios is of limited duration, but what else does this scripture tell us? It tells us that the LIFE of God is GREATER then that of olam/aionios, for God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios.
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The Life of God and of Christ is not just olam/aionios but their LIFE is MORE then that, yea MUCH MORE. Their LIFE exceeds the olam/aionios life just as a week exceeds a day, a month exceeds a week and a year exceeds a month, so to does the LIFE of God in Christ exceed olam/aionios LIFE.
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The error both camps fall into is the belief that aionios life is all the life there is in God and Christ. But as the reader just read God is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios, thus is it not then clear that we to in Christ are given a LIFE far greater then just olam/aionios LIFE.
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Lets read in Hebrew and you will see Christ life (and therefore ours) exceeds that of olam/aionios life.
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Hebrews 7:16
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
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Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
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Now as Akatalutos-Endless clearly shows that of a life without end, why did not the writers of the scriptures use Akatalutos concerning punishment and life instead of olam/aionios? Is it not because olam/aionios is of limited duration?
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What we receive in Christ is a AKATALUTOS/ENDLESS LIFE, a life that spans EVERY olam/aionios age-lasting life. Just as Gods life is FROM olam/aionios TO olam/aionios so to is ours in Christ.
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Lets read in Pet. To further see this life we are to inherit that is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
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1 Peter 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
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Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
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Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
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Can not the reader see here just how much more grand our life is in Christ then just olam/aionios age-abiding life?
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These are just a few examples of how MUCH MORE our life in Christ is then olam/aionios life.
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If punishment was to be eternal in the sense of without beginning and without end surely the Holy Spirit would have use one of the words expressed above to show this, but NEVER is any of these words that express endlessness EVER used in the punishments of God.
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Praise God there is MUCH MORE to life in Christ then just that of olam/aionios life, and it is because so many of God people do not realise this that they fall into the error of changing the meaning of words within the same sentence.
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Brothers and sister there is absolutely no need to do this if one can but see the life we have in Christ is MUCH MORE then olam/aionios life.
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Even FROM everlasting TO everlasting, thou art God.
pneuma, how is one supposed to cross back over the chasm Jesus speaks of? Along those same lines, how will one belong to Christ once the wedding feast has concluded?
According to the Bible (and after life experiences) it's real.
"Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz (a concentration camp) for victims whom he does not even allow to die."
Written by the late Clark Pinnock, an influential evangelical theologian.
"Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz (a concentration camp) for victims whom he does not even allow to die."
Written by the late Clark Pinnock, an influential evangelical theologian.
That's a good quote, and I think it demonstrates how the idea is so purely human. We keep people in solitary confinement for years, and there are people who think this means justice. The human mind wants others who are perceived to have done wrong to suffer in some way and attributes it to God to give it validity. We are the bloodthirsty monster.
It's a literal place. From what I've gathered from scripture, it's in the center of the earth.
"From what you gather" eh! I have no idea how you expect to dwell with our God who is consuming fire, but prepare yourself.
Our God is a consuming Fire
Fire Is A Beneficent Agent
How shallow is the common view of "fire" as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of....
"Life"....Isa. 4:5
"Purification"....Matt. 3:3
"Atonement"....Lev. 16:27
"Transformation".....2 Pet. 3:10
And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.
And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God's fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.
Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, "aflame to the very tips of our fingers." And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.
Fire Is The Sign Of God's Being
And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.
Fire is the sign, not of God's wrath, but of His being.
When God comes to Ezekiel there is a "fire unfolding itself" (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and "the appearance of fire." (Ezek. 8:2)
Christ's eyes are a flame of "fire" (Rev. 1:14).
The seven lamps of "fire" are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said "to go before God," His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God's ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4...Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.
Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome
It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes--call it, if you please, a paradox--in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, "Thy God is a consuming Fire," and "Thy God is a merciful God" (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)--words full of significance.
So Isaiah tells us of God's cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)--suggestive words. And, so again, "By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh." (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by "fire." (Mal. 3:2).
Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?
Let us note, also, how often "fire" is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in "fire:" God answers Gideon by "fire;" and David by "fire." (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by "fire;" and in "fire" Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of "fire." So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by "fire." (Psl. 18:6-8)
And by the pillar of "fire" God gave His law. And in "fire" the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."
Fire Is The Portion Of All
These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that "fire," like judgment, so far from being the sinner's portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God's judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is "already kindled," always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. "I am come to send fire on the earth," for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the "fire is to try every man's work." He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned "so as by fire," by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.
The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, "He that is near Me is near fire," expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work "like a refiner's fire." And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that "our God is a consuming Fire," i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but "Our God is a consuming Fire"--a consuming Fire, "by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed."
When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that "coals of fire" go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are "coals of fire" to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious "fires" of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner's doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these "fires" not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise--
pneuma, how is one supposed to cross back over the chasm Jesus speaks of? Along those same lines, how will one belong to Christ once the wedding feast has concluded?
The chasm exists only in your mind, jimmiej; he will never turn anyone away.
Apparently, you hold onto a verse or two in order to justify the thought of ECT.
No, you twisted a few, none saying what you think, if read literally.
Matt. 25:41, 46
Mark 9:44
Luke 16:19-31
John 3
Daniel 12:2
The parable of the Weddng Feast
The parable of the Weeds
Mark 9:44
42And whosoever shall offend one of*these*little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.*43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:*44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.*45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:*46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.*47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:*48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.*50Salt*is*good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Please don't tell me you take these scriptures literally. Surely you don't believe we are to cut our hands off and pluck out our eyes.
An unquenchable fire does not mean a fire that is without end
This is so easy to see in that Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed with unquenchable fire, and if we look to Sodom and Gomorrah we do not see a fire still burning there today. So what happened? When all that was in Sodom and Gomorrah that could be burn was consumed the fire went out.
Also if the reader reads Ezekiel 16:53-55 they will see that Sodom and Gomorrah will be restored.
So as S& G will be restored we can see this unquenchable fire is used for restoration and not some type of eternal punishment.
pneuma, how is one supposed to cross back over the chasm Jesus speaks of? Along those same lines, how will one belong to Christ once the wedding feast has concluded?
That word chasm is only used once in scripture, however the parable is about the chasm between the Jew and the gentle. The chasm is the middle wall of partition that Jesus broke down. What the law could not do Jesus did.
Eph 2:11-18
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
I will get to the wedding feast Jimmie , going through your scriptures in order.
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