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Oh I am so slow! Let's see if my spirit is grasping the fact that the Christ only spoke to His 12 when He declared you have not chosen Me. Those coming thereafter do choose Him. It is wonderful to think my destiny as His disciple is rooted in my right decisions....how does the song go? "I have decided to follow Jesus...."
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."
"We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. No man can come to Me, except the Father... draw him'(John 6:44)..this prevenient drawing takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming." -A.W. Tozer-
As I said, I'm a Reformed, or Calvinist guy when it comes to my view of salvation. The Arminian would suggest that God giving them the ability to choose (prevenient grace) is his "drawing". I don't agree with it, but it's what they believe.
I appreciate what "they" believe. However far from God giving them the "ability to chose" has locked all mankind in Adam in disobedience. Lets consider a wee equation...
"As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." The same all (pas) is equal on both sides!
But wait, the apostle Paul declares this in Romans 5 regarding the many=polus
"by the disobedience of one the polus (many) are made sinners"
SO
"by the obedience of One shall the many (polus) be made righteous."
Both sides of the equation equal!
"We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. No man can come to Me, except the Father... draw him'(John 6:44)..this prevenient drawing takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming." -A.W. Tozer-
I appreciate what "they" believe. However far from God giving them the "ability to chose" has locked all mankind in Adam in disobedience. Lets consider a wee equation...
"As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive." The same all (pas) is equal on both sides!
But wait, the apostle Paul declares this in Romans 5 regarding the many=polus
"by the disobedience of one the polus (many) are made sinners"
SO
"by the obedience of One shall the many (polus) be made righteous."
Both sides of the equation equal!
"We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. No man can come to Me, except the Father... draw him'(John 6:44)..this prevenient drawing takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming." -A.W. Tozer-
I agree. Yes---you're correct.
But the topic was prevenient grace, so I chimed in on what I knew of it.
so because you can say
"yes", that some how makes you responsible for his salvation or what he did on the cross.. what? that is like saying because you sinned he had to die . you are not responsible for either part.... it doesn't make sense.
but you are responsible for the willingness to be willing to follow.. that choice is sometimes just "make me willing to be made willing" when you aint feelin it ..that is still the will.
Mar 9:24
The father instantly cried out, “I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!”
when seeing he was a mixed bag of belief and mixed bag of his will , he cried out for help..
that is the will. to beg for help to be made willing.. is still the will.
what I hate most about the other side of your coin and this thoeology . Is it paints the picture that if God is responsible for your every choice.. that God is responsible for men being sinners and for their will to sin . and nothing could be Farther from the truth.
and unlike you I do not believe all men will be saved .
and so on the flip side of your theology here.. I do not beleive God caused men to sin or be sinners just he didn't make a homosexual that way.. that homosexual were usually children who were molested by a male in their own family. it is a demon who created that sexual sinner.. .. NOT GOD who created that homosexual or the preditor who violated this soul..
I won't ever believe that.
but you all can.. I guess it is a choice your heart makes. ;P
I do believe there are people and hearts that will never soften to anything pharoah etc..and that is is their choice to believe their press..
the rich and the powerful and the beautiful and all arrogant and if God drops them into a situation as a catalyst for sinners to rally around moham....id. etc that he can use that hard heart to save even more people and get the luke warm to soften because of the comparison of themselves to hardness of the overbearing of the thieves and liars and the arrogant etc ..
NO he does Not have to force submission. he is not so desperate for Love as that . He just has to out smart you.. and get most to willing see their errors. and to see that he did indeed out smart you.. thus prove to YOU that YOU are NOT GOD.. that is all he has to prove to you .. is that you are not God and can not save yourself.
but some will not even listen to that and will instead believe the enemies flattery and their own press.
you can ignore this if you wish.. I won't ignore it.. because the human heart will make these choices .. if you like it or not.
Rev 21:8
“But the cowardly, unbelieving,[fn] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
I will go as far as to say that the Father and the son never knew what was going on in hell between madkinds ears . even asking " who told you that you were naked? " the4y had entered into a place the son and the father could not enter. .
Jesus died and went to hell. because God could not go to madkinds place. where God is there is no darkness ( see the sun) . then as a choice like a moon that was made to rule in the darkness and to reflect the Father's light .. only then when the Lord of creation entered into the darkness did he learn how to know what was being done in the darkness.
I believe the Father foreknew the results of sin.. but was perplexed as he probably could not fix that which he could not conceive of.. he could not know the concept of sin in mankind's heart until Jesus entered the darkness of both / death and the powers of hell in the mind of madkind by his spirit.
I do not think the Father could enter into the darkness ( like the sun ) of men hearts or the power those hearts created until the Son entered into madkinds insanity in the darkness ( like the moon and stars ) to bring light , directions stories, The words of life , the spirit of life.. etc....to those willing to be lead out of the darkness into the Fathers light.
only then when the son died could He enter into the heart of evil and fix what is broke there when men ask for help. and the Father gave him all power and authority to do it . because the Father is love and He is all light.
that is what I chose to believe by observation of creation if nothing else . I still know that he did not create evil, men did .. and he created them royal and responsible and not slaves.
and I bet no matter how the Father played creation out in his mind.. how he did it/ creation of men and of their will .. men still fell and needed a cure .. a Cure Father could not know unless he had a son. a man to enter in for him .
I can't find the verse but it says basicly that the Lord says to Israel " how could you do such things I can not even think of it " he is so perplexed that that kind evil could even enter into their mind.. things he could even in anyway conceive of or probably even think about .. he is so perplexed. I say when he entered into hell and into the minds of fallen men at pentecost by the spirit I say , he was way less perplexed..
But I can't find it.. it is there ..
But that is what I chose to believe !! you can believe whatever, it is your choice!
I believe my God is all GOOD!!
Me friend, you simply must look a little higher, a little deeper, to our Fathers cherished purpose in the Son of His love!
"..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."
This, friend, is the finest news you will hear today and forevermore!
"We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit. No man can come to Me, except the Father... draw him'(John 6:44)..this prevenient drawing takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming." -A.W. Tozer-
[quote=Rose2Luv;51932778]Me friend, you simply must look a little higher, a little deeper, to our Fathers cherished purpose in the Son of His love!
/QUOTE] If I look harder I will find that God is evil and made men evil and then scripture clearly proves he will punish them for what you say is the evil that he created.
this is your theology.
NO THankYOU!
I know the word and his heart better than that ..
it is your god who killed sodomites for being fat , not for their sins they created .. that is Not my God.. .
it is a broken record.. deal with the last verse that I posted in revelations. because
there is will , there is judgement and one day it will come.
don't mock the Father,
heck don't mock repentance either.
“But the cowardly, unbelieving,[fn] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
The GOOD NEWS IS that day isn't today !! but it is day on the horizon!
and God did not cause men to sin , our will does that !
stop just don't mock him!
a broken record.. deal with the last verse that I posted in revelations.
there is will , there is judgement and one day it will come.
don't mock the Father, Rev 21:8
“But the cowardly, unbelieving,[fn] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
that day isn't today !! but it is day on the horizon!
and God did not cause men to sin , our will does that ! stop mocking him!
I have great hope in the Lake of Fire and Divinity/Theos! Great hope!
I have great hope in the Lake of Fire and Divinity/Theos! Great hope!
Rom 8:20
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Eph 4:17
This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[fn] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
is futility sin?
No! it can go there though .. men did that all by themselves .
yet your theology blames God for causing sin , thus the sourse of sin when in fact he only submitted creation to futility by creating free will/ by the tree in the garden.. .
and he did that in that HOPE .
the good news is MY God is not evil and he is trust worthy!! and he doesn't kill people for being fat or lazy.. but a rewarder of righteousness ! which appears is also a choice..
...... Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14
¶ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I like revelations it is the only book with a curse attached so as to say "don't mess with it. it is perfect as it is.."
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
"8 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
Repeat after me..........
The whole of created life (the creature) shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption.
That, friend, is the mass of mankind, the whole enchilada...the hilasmos of the holos!
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Let's see if my spirit is grasping the fact that the Christ only spoke to His 12 when He declared you have not chosen Me. Those coming thereafter do choose Him. It is wonderful to think my destiny as His disciple is rooted in my right decisions....how does the song go? "I have decided to follow Jesus...."
