Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Christians consider 1 Cor. 15 to be undeniable proof that Jesus was resurrected from the dead because Jesus was seen by more than 500 people after the crucifixion. This overlooks a couple of important facts. First, 1 Cor. represents a single testimony, that of Paul, and not 500 eyewitness reports. And second, Paul did not become converted to Christianity until some few years after Jesus was crucified. Paul was not a personal witness to any of the claimed post crucifixion sightings of the resurrected Jesus.
Is the story of the 500 seeing the resurrected Jesus a realistic story?
In addition to that, even the apostles and disciples who followed Jesus, REQUIRED proof, that Jesus was who he claimed to be, numerous times even!!
1 Corinthians 15:1-8 - 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
Paul provides the gospel message that is able to save any human being when it is received.
Jesus Christ died for our sins.
He was buried.
He was raised to new life. The raising to new life was a physical resurrection, being that He was seen by hundreds of people (minimum).
Believe this and God will ensure your salvation.
And all along I thought it was JESUS that saves...guess the bible out ranks Jesus in those evangelical circles eh?
Actually, scholars recognize that 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is a pre-Pauline creed or tradition that was a part of the church from the beginning. Paul was passing on to the Corinthians what he himself had received, probably from Peter and James when he met with them some three years after his encounter with the risen Jesus on the Damascus road.
What I'm saying is that scholars recognize that what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is not a claim that he came up with, but was a part of the church before his own conversion.
Gary Habermas on the Pre-Pauline Creed of 1 Cor. 15
1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is widely recognized by New Testament scholars as a statement of belief (creed) that was systematized long before Paul quoted it. If so, it represents the earliest historical account of Jesus’ resurrection, and goes back to the eyewitnesses themselves. Gary Habermas comments on the very early date of this creed, which even skeptical scholars acknowledge.
Do critical scholars agree on the date of this pre-Pauline creed? Even radical scholars like Gerd Lüdemann think that “the elements in the tradition are to be dated to the first two years after the crucifixion . . . no later than three years after the death of Jesus.” Similarly, Michael Goulder contends that Paul’s testimony about the resurrection appearances “goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion.”
An increasing number of exceptionally influential scholars have very recently concluded that at least the teaching of the resurrection, and perhaps even the specific formulation of the pre-Pauline creedal tradition in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7, dates to AD 30! In other words, there never was a time when the message of Jesus’ resurrection was not an integral part of the earliest apostolic proclamation. No less a scholar than James D. G. Dunn even states regarding this crucial text: “This tradition, we can be entirely confident, was formulated as tradition within months of Jesus’ death.”
— Gary Habermas, “Tracing Jesus’ Resurrection to Its Earliest Eyewitness Accounts,” God is Great, God is Good (InterVarsity Press, 2009), 212.
Acts of the apostles tells us that that the apostles began to spread the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead, beginning about six weeks after Jesus was crucified. THAT is the origin of the "apostles creed."
Because of his experience in Damascus while critically ill, Paul accepted the story of the risen Jesus as true, although he had no personal experience with the post crucifixion sightings of Jesus that the apostles claimed occurred. The apostles claimed that Jesus returned from the dead, and subsequently flew off up into the sky. Something only the apostles were privy too. The question before us today is, is that a realistic claim?
What I said has nothing to do with Calvinism but with the grace of God. Eternal salvation is a completely different issue than the spiritual life which follows salvation. What a believer does or doesn't do with his spiritual life has no bearing on the fact that he has already been saved through a simple non-meritorious act of faith in Christ Jesus.
We do not cooperate in our salvation by making any meritorious efforts on our part. We simply trust in what Jesus has already accomplished on the cross on our behalf. It is that non-meritorious act of faith by which we take possession of the gift of salvation that is freely offered.
Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. And that's the whole of it with regard to obtaining eternal life. The spiritual life which follows salvation is an entirely different issue.
So, "believe" is a " non-meritorious work," but making a commitment to turn IS? Seriously?
Acts of the apostles tells us that that the apostles began to spread the rumor that Jesus had risen from the dead, beginning about six weeks after Jesus was crucified. THAT is the origin of the "apostles creed."
Again, Paul received the tradition that he passed on to the Corinthians probably when he met with Peter and James three years after his conversion. What he passed on to the Corinthians was not of his own making and therefore refutes your argument that what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 can't be relied on.
Quote:
Because of his experience in Damascus while critically ill, Paul accepted the story of the risen Jesus as true, although he had no personal experience with the post crucifixion sightings of Jesus that the apostles claimed occurred. The apostles claimed that Jesus returned from the dead, and subsequently flew off up into the sky. Something only the apostles were privy too. The question before us today is, is that a realistic claim?
You keep making that same ridiculous claim over and over again. Paul was not ill when he had his Damascus road experience. You like to claim, in direct denial of what Acts 9:9 says, that Paul had gone without food or drink for three days before he had his encounter and was therefore ill. But Acts 9:9 is clear that Paul had his encounter with the risen Jesus BEFORE going without food and water for three days. The same text states that the men who were with him also experienced something. They saw a light and heard a voice which they could not identify. That means that Paul did not have an hallucination.
The point being made by Da Dude (and a good one) is that while Paul was specifically addressing current denigration in the local church of the resurrection story, "easy believers" would have us believe that it specifies a formula that is all that is needed for "salvation" rather than as a PART of the commitment necessary to community with God and man, while YOUR concern is that we will all come to that community eventually.
There is nothing easier that assuming God will automatically save everyone. As a matter of fact, if it were true, there would be no reason to ever even mention it.
There is nothing easier that assuming God will automatically save everyone. As a matter of fact, if it were true, there would be no reason to ever even mention it.
So, "believe" is a " non-meritorious work," but making a commitment to turn IS? Seriously?
Belief or faith in Christ, trusting in the veracity of another is certainly non-meritorious. The merit goes to Jesus. Not to the one who simply believes in Him. And contrary to the claims of those who hold to what is called 'Lordship salvation' there is no need to make a commitment to Jesus as Lord in order to receive eternal life. Jesus IS Lord whether you commit to Him or not. There is no requirement to give up anything or do anything other than believe that Jesus died for your sins. The only stated requirement for eternal salvation is to receive Jesus as Savior.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-28-2018 at 12:44 PM..
So, "believe" is a " non-meritorious work," but making a commitment to turn IS? Seriously?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Belief or faith in Christ, trusting in the veracity of another is certainly non-meritorious. The merit goes to Jesus. Not to the one who simply believes in Him. And contrary to the claims of those who hold to what is called 'Lordship salvation' there is no need to make a commitment to Jesus as Lord. Jesus IS Lord whether you commit to Him or not. There is no requirement to give up anything or do anything other than believe that Jesus died for your sins. The only stated requirement for eternal salvation is to receive Jesus as Savior.
You did not answer the question, you just made an assertion about the need to repent as taught by Jesus.
There is nothing easier that assuming God will automatically save everyone. As a matter of fact, if it were true, there would be no reason to ever even mention it.
What IS needed is to counter the fear tactics of those who would enforce their own ideas of what the gospel means with their focus on sin rather than show how our lives are so much better IN the love of God
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
