The council of Nicea and the Roman church (Tanakh, tradition, Gospel)

[nateswift]

And the point to be taken was that there were absolutely irrelivant questions raised in the church concerning the nature of the relationship among Father, Son and Spirit that did nothing more than make the people arguing them look like they had something to contribute and were, in fact, in charge of the faith. A faith that is, or should be, about OUR relationship to God and each other.

Instead of telling them to drop it as he should have, Constantine told them to decide it and declare everyone who didn't fall into line "OTHER," and to be persecuted. Not a Christian idea.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

And we know that Jesus is "the one true God and the Second Person of the Trinity, with the Father and the Holy Spirit," because the Catholic church declared it to be so... 300 years after the time of Jesus. To put that into perspective, Napoleon was BORN in 1769, 249 years ago. What did the Catholic church actually know of the original Yeshua of Galilee in the 4th century? Only what they declared to be true. And so Jesus the Christ was born.

No. We know that Jesus is God because the New Testament scriptures, which were written during the first century A.D., long before the rise of Roman Catholicism, declares Him to be God.

John 1:1 says that not only was the Word (with reference to the pre-incarnate Jesus) with God, but was Himself God.

The writer of Hebrews in Hebrews chapter one has God the Father declaring that the Son is God and that it was the Son who created the heavens and the earth.

And the apostle Paul in Philippians 2:5-8 states that Jesus existed in the form of God and became a man. Philippians was written by Paul c. AD 59-62.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by nateswift

And the point to be taken was that there were absolutely irrelivant questions raised in the church concerning the nature of the relationship among Father, Son and Spirit that did nothing more than make the people arguing them look like they had something to contribute and were, in fact, in charge of the faith. A faith that is, or should be, about OUR relationship to God and each other.

Instead of telling them to drop it as he should have, Constantine told them to decide it and declare everyone who didn't fall into line "OTHER," and to be persecuted. Not a Christian idea.

The nature of the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not irrelevant in the least. How can anyone claim to know who God is without understanding that God is shown in the Scriptures to exist in three persons? The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all stated to be God in the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:8 says to grow in the grace and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that includes understanding the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Having faith does not mean being ignorant of what the Scriptures say about God.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Originally Posted by Mike555

No. We know that Jesus is God because the New Testament scriptures, which were written during the first century A.D., long before the rise of Roman Catholicism, declares Him to be God.

John 1:1 says that not only was the Word (with reference to the pre-incarnate Jesus) with God, but was Himself God.

The writer of Hebrews in Hebrews chapter one has God the Father declaring that the Son is God and that it was the Son who created the heavens and the earth.

And the apostle Paul in Philippians 2:5-8 states that Jesus existed in the form of God and became a man. Philippians was written by Paul c. AD 59-62.

The NT scriptures were written years after the time Jesus lived and died by individuals who, like Paul, in all probability never actually knew Jesus.

Here is a list of the various documents the church had to sift through as they constructed their concept of who Yeshua of Galilee was and what he represented.


1 and 2 Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Apocalypse of Peter
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
Gospel of Thomas
Oxyrhynchus Gospels
Egerton Gospel
Fayyum Fragment
Dialogue of the Saviour
The Gospel of the Ebionites ("GE") – 7 quotations by Epiphanius.
The Gospel of the Hebrews ("GH") – 1 quotation ascribed to Cyril of Jerusalem, plus GH 2–7 quotations by Clement, Origen, and Jerome.
The Gospel of the Nazarenes
Gospel of the Ebionites
Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazoraeans
Secret Gospel of Mark
Gospel of Marcion
Gospel of Judas
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Marcion (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Mani (3rd century)
Gospel of Apelles (mid-late 2nd century)
Gospel of Bardesanes (late 2nd - early 3rd century)
Gospel of Basilides (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate")
Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem, On the Life and the Passion of Christ
Gospel of Bartholomew
Questions of Bartholomew
Resurrection of Jesus
Apocryphon of James (also called the "Secret Book of James")
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas (also called the "Gospel of Judas Iscariot")
Gospel of Mary (also called the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene")
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians)
The Sophia of Jesus Christ
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Apocalypse of Paul)
Gospel of Truth
Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Apocalypse of Peter)
Pistis Sophia
Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Apocryphon of John (also called the "Secret Gospel of John")
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians)
Trimorphic Protennoia
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Barnabas
Acts of John
Acts of the Martyrs
Acts of Paul
Acts of Paul and Thecla
Acts of Peter
Acts of Peter and Andrew
Acts of Peter and Paul
Acts of Peter and the Twelve
Acts of Philip
Acts of Pilate
Acts of Thomas
Acts of Timothy
Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
Epistle of Barnabas
Epistles of Clement
Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to Diognetus
Epistle to the Laodiceans (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Epistle to Seneca the Younger (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Third Epistle to the Corinthians - accepted in the past by some in the Armenian Orthodox church.
Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul)
Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter)
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius
Apocalypse of Thomas (also called the Revelation of Thomas)
Apocalypse of Stephen (also called the Revelation of Stephen)
First Apocalypse of James (also called the First Revelation of James)
Second Apocalypse of James (also called the Second Revelation of James)
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Descent of Mary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha


82 total

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

The NT scriptures were written years after the time Jesus lived and died by individuals who, like Paul, in all probability never actually knew Jesus.

That's your opinion and the opinion of skeptics. While it is true that the New Testament scriptures didn't begin to be written until probably the AD. 40s, with the last of them written around the end of the first century, they were written during the lifetime of the apostles, with most of them having been written by the apostles, with exceptions such as the Gospel of Luke and Acts, and the gospel of Mark. But Luke and Mark were close associates of the apostles.

[SumTingy]

Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense

The NT scriptures were written years after the time Jesus lived and died by individuals who, like Paul, in all probability never actually knew Jesus.

Here is a list of the various documents the church had to sift through as they constructed their concept of who Yeshua of Galilee was and what he represented.


1 and 2 Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Didache
Epistle of Barnabas
Apocalypse of Peter
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
Gospel of Thomas
Oxyrhynchus Gospels
Egerton Gospel
Fayyum Fragment
Dialogue of the Saviour
The Gospel of the Ebionites ("GE") – 7 quotations by Epiphanius.
The Gospel of the Hebrews ("GH") – 1 quotation ascribed to Cyril of Jerusalem, plus GH 2–7 quotations by Clement, Origen, and Jerome.
The Gospel of the Nazarenes
Gospel of the Ebionites
Gospel of the Hebrews
Gospel of the Nazoraeans
Secret Gospel of Mark
Gospel of Marcion
Gospel of Judas
Gospel of Thomas
Gospel of Marcion (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Mani (3rd century)
Gospel of Apelles (mid-late 2nd century)
Gospel of Bardesanes (late 2nd - early 3rd century)
Gospel of Basilides (mid 2nd century)
Gospel of Peter
Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate")
Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem, On the Life and the Passion of Christ
Gospel of Bartholomew
Questions of Bartholomew
Resurrection of Jesus
Apocryphon of James (also called the "Secret Book of James")
Book of Thomas the Contender
Dialogue of the Saviour
Gospel of Judas (also called the "Gospel of Judas Iscariot")
Gospel of Mary (also called the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene")
Gospel of Philip
Greek Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians)
The Sophia of Jesus Christ
Coptic Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Apocalypse of Paul)
Gospel of Truth
Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Apocalypse of Peter)
Pistis Sophia
Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Apocryphon of John (also called the "Secret Gospel of John")
Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (distinct from the Greek Gospel of the Egyptians)
Trimorphic Protennoia
Acts of Andrew
Acts of Barnabas
Acts of John
Acts of the Martyrs
Acts of Paul
Acts of Paul and Thecla
Acts of Peter
Acts of Peter and Andrew
Acts of Peter and Paul
Acts of Peter and the Twelve
Acts of Philip
Acts of Pilate
Acts of Thomas
Acts of Timothy
Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca
Epistle of Barnabas
Epistles of Clement
Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul
Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Epistle to Diognetus
Epistle to the Laodiceans (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Epistle to Seneca the Younger (an epistle in the name of Paul)
Third Epistle to the Corinthians - accepted in the past by some in the Armenian Orthodox church.
Apocalypse of Paul (distinct from the Coptic Apocalypse of Paul)
Apocalypse of Peter (distinct from the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter)
Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius
Apocalypse of Thomas (also called the Revelation of Thomas)
Apocalypse of Stephen (also called the Revelation of Stephen)
First Apocalypse of James (also called the First Revelation of James)
Second Apocalypse of James (also called the Second Revelation of James)
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Descent of Mary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha


82 total

This is not quite true. The New Testament writers certainly knew Jesus. Paul had an actual encounter with Him. James was the brother of Jesus. John, and Peter were the inner circle.

New Testament books were already used by the Churches. Some books, like Hebrews, were in question during the gathering because it wasn’t exactly known who the author was. Yet, their harmony with other books was clearly evident and were included.

Much of the listing above were nothing more than false theology written over 150-400 years after Christ’s ressurection. A few “bishops” argued for some to be included but were out voted overwhelmingly . They had false teachers back in day too.

In summary, the Church just made the Bible “official” for what was in use already. The Scripture was inpired by the Lord and is without error. Any “church” that overrides the Bible should be corrected and possibly shunned.

[Jerwade]

The council of Nicea and the Roman church?

When you give a man something to believe-in, it makes him a better soldier.

[rstevens62]

Keep in mind, even the Apostles and disciples who closely followed Jesus...faith and belief was NOT enough for them, they demanded proof from Jesus numerous times to prove he was who he claimed to be.

I think this is very significant.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by rstevens62

Keep in mind, even the Apostles and disciples who closely followed Jesus...faith and belief was NOT enough for them, they demanded proof from Jesus numerous times to prove he was who he claimed to be.

I think this is very significant.

Could be. I don't recall offhand such demands. Can you give me an example. Funny, the only thing that comes to my mind in regard to the faith of the 12 was when so many people turned away and Jesus asked if they would also. Peter's answer was “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”… "the words of eternal life," the Way of community with God and Man.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by Mike555

The nature of the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not irrelevant in the least. How can anyone claim to know who God is without understanding that God is shown in the Scriptures to exist in three persons? The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all stated to be God in the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:8 says to grow in the grace and KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that includes understanding the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Having faith does not mean being ignorant of what the Scriptures say about God.

Why would they need to know (or believe) that about God when they know HOW to be in community with God?