Jesus is God vs. Jesus is son of God

[101c]

Originally Posted by hd4me

Cant ignore what Jesus said about himself in John 14:28 and John 20:17. The idea that there is but one God whom Jesus himself called "greater" than himself as well as "his God" fits well with what Paul wrote above, the Christ is still in subjection to his Father.

Also, we have in Matthew 24:36 the following which is attributed to Jesus:

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

If Jesus is God why would he not know about the day or hour?

When Jesus said the Father was greater than him and that he was going to His God he was talking to a Jewish audience who only believed in one Almighty God, YHWH. There were no Christians, no thoughts of a Trinity. If Jesus was "God" yet stated the above about his relationship with the Almighty he would be hiding his true nature and thus would be subject to accusations of being deceitful or misleading to his Jewish audience. Yet Scripture tells us Jesus was without deceit.

GINOLJC, to all.

First thanks for the reply, second, as the bible says, “my people are destroyed for the LACK of KNOWLEDGE”. and the apostle Paul said, "I have you not Ignorant".

#1. no need to ignore what our Lord said in John 14:28, and John 20:17 when one have the TRUTH. The TRUTH always stands and a lie will fall. So, let’s see who falls?

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”.

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God”.

Let’s kill two birds with one stone, and that stone being the Word of God. first, John 14:28, “GREATER THAN” is that qualitative, or is that in quality?. which is your first mistake...

this verse have been taken out of context for way to long, and grossly misunderstood. as the word say, "in all thy getting get understanding". the word, "GREATER", here in this verse is not the word GREAT, but, "GREATER", it's an Adjective, as used here, and not an Adverb, this is very important. the word GREATER is the Greek word G3187 meizon (meid'-zone) adj.
1. larger (specially, in age)
{literally or figuratively}
[irregular comparative of G3173]
KJV: elder, greater(-est), more Root(s): G3173

Dictionary.com, when the word is looked up, as an Adjective, (of a city) considered with the inclusion of the outer suburbs: Greater London. here the definition is indicating quantity, (MORE), instead of quality, (SUPERIOR).

quantity: "an exact or specified amount or measure". look at these capitalize words above real good, and lets get an understanding.

What did Jesus mean, "The Father is Greater than I", Greater: G3187 meizon (meid'-zone), quality, or quantity. Lets, understand, in the book of Romans 12:3 it states, "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith". this verse gives us the understanding of quantity, vs quality. every man is the same, (quality), no man is superior to another, so there's no rank. also as with MALES and FEMALES in the kingdom of GOD. the same Spirit is in every male/female. and every male/female is given the same amount or the same quantity of Faith.

so likewise as the same Spirit, God, the Lord Jesus that manifest in that fleshly body, as the Offspring, the diversity, his nature of the Spirit did not change in quality, only the quantity of his being is limited to that one body, other words his Omni attributes was limited. This limitation in a flesh and blood body, or as the Greek call it, G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') v.
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain

This term can be found in Philippians 2:7 under the word, no “reputation”. in my study I call this limitation in the flesh, “Intrinsic Spatial”. look up each word separately to get the full meaning when combined.

let’s look at this “limitation” in John the 14th. Chapter and get the revelation. here, the Lord Jesus is speaking of the work of salvation. as the Spirit was in Christ, (the flesh, the man), he was limited, by that fleshly body with BLOOD. the Lord Jesus didn't go into all the world while he was here on earth in flesh and blood. he was limited in his work of salvation, because of that body, and the time he was in it. he was not yet Glorified with the Spirit (John 17:5), which then he would be in all of us who believe, hence the “GREATER THAN” in quantity. but to see this clearly, watch the WORKS and how it is used.

John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". see that word "greater" here in verse 12. it is the same word, "greater", Jesus uses in verse 28. wait a minute, is Jesus saying that men who believe is GREATER than him in power, (quality), as we been led to assume? NO. because he said no man is "GREATER" than his Master". so what is the Lord Jesus really saying?, as I have said, GREATER, have several meaning, depending on how you used it, in context or out of context, but let the bible explain itself. now we will seeing the real use of the word, in its context, and meaning, (the TRUTH).

greater here is used in quantity, and not in quality. When greater is used as an adjective, it means, "more" as in more believers to do the SAME quality of work, because it is the Lord JESUS, the Holy Ghost, who will be doing the work. why? because he dwells in us and give us the Spiritual Gifts so that he can do the work in us. now the work he is doing will be greater, (quantity), in number, because he goes to his Spirit/Father, meaning, glorified in the Spirit, (John 17:5). he is in us doing the same quality of work he was doing as an individual, but now in more, or greater in quantity (many believers), because go to HIS “SPIRIT”/the FATHER, so that he can pour himself out as he did on Pentecost. he said, John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works, (THERE IT IS), than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". so we who believe will do the SAME works, because now we have his POWER, the Holy Ghost to do the SAME work. millions of Jesus (the Spirit) doing the same quality of works all over the globe, so greater here means more, (quantity), not in (quality). the raising of the dead cannot be improved on, (quality), but if 100, or a 1,000 was raising the dead, that (quantity). so clearly what Jesus could not do in his fleshly body he can do GREATER in Spirit.

See, you now have the TRUTH. If this post is still not clear to "YOU", I suggest re-read the post…. or ask questions.

Remember what he said, in John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father/his Spirit may be glorified in the Son/the man Jesus who is Lord.” I WILL DO IT, .... iif a 100 or 1,000 ask at the same time, he, he, he, will do it.

Now to prove my point, by your other question, that he ascended to “his” Spirit whom you calls the Father, scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven".

While the Lord JESUS was talking to Nicodemus on earth, in a BODY of flesh and blood, (the Son), while his Spirit, without a body was in heaven at the same time he was speaking to Nicodemus in that body on earth. I suggest you read that 3rd chapter of John and get … understanding. simple, JESUS is the Father, "shared" in Flesh on the earth as the Son, per Isaiah 9:6.

I’ll answer your Matthew 24:24 and 36 in my next post of truth being revealed.

[n..Xuipa]

Originally Posted by hd4me

Here's another gem of a Scripture written by the Apostle Paul. Christ does not become coequal to the Father (Almighty God) even after he was resurrected to immortal life in heaven as King of God's Kingdom

"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."-1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Without interpretation, just let the Scripture interpret itself, Paul wrote the following:

1) Christ hands over the Kingdom to not only his Father but "his God!"
2) Everything is subject to Christ. With ONE exception, His Father, His God
3) When everything is subjected under Christ THEN who in turn subjects himself to His Father, His God? Christ.

There was NO part of Christ that wasn't subjected to the Father from the very beginning, so the point is mute..
the Father has to bring all unholy and unrighteous and unglorified into the submission of Christ/ the son or root of David / +his own right Arm of God. eliminating all other things unholy and unrighteous.
because the Father part of God is holy/ Separated Now as his function .. and until all things have been submitted to Christ First and all else has been destroyed .. creation and humanity cannot enter into the presence of the "Holy"/ separated part of the Father functioning parts of the Father and his throne(
the right arm of the Father was been given to the son ( so son and ARM) and their purpose/ function is to bring all things into subjection to the Father. that arm is our Creator ..but all of God included whos own right arm which is The creator entered the SON at the Baptism . and the Father will do that by first bring all things righteous and creation into subjection of the Son and He will destroy all things which were not subjected. only Then can man and creation enter into the Father's presence
Then the son can bring all thing into the Fathers presence. it has to have entered into the overcome death in order to enter into His presence. He has to destroy death first. But everything must have been purified by it first..

it is a Tag team event. the Arm and the Father are still God .. but the Arm is in a real man now. The root/ the Rhizome/ Sperma of David!

actually, I love the way Enoch prophesies this .. the sheep get massacred and get turned into black and white bulls.. and then the Son becomes a white bull and turns all black and red bulls into white bulls and then he turns back into a sheep. Native American will get that prophesy for sure.. or something like that..

SO that Sheep is when he has taken a break a much-needed rest from his work....and no longer rules everything.. but has given it over to the Father then they rule it all together.
Now that is cool.. I love the ideas of shared power, shared functions, one day it will be all things will be shared in common, the whole concept of checks and "balances of powers " of like the Usa guberment is stolen ... is .. very very NA clanishand Very Much God's way .
but communism doesn't work under men/////just too many fallen abusers and Madkind..

[n..Xuipa]

meaning the Right arm received by the Son at the Baptism is the Father .. that arm can't be subjected to himself.. the yes the human part of the son( genome of man/SON of David) is subjected to the Father and the Fathers' laws which is now his spiritual parts.
that is why he was tested tried by Satan and men like he was.. to be worthy of getting the right arm and receiving all power to rule over creation. having his humanity subject to his spirit.. just like we should do too if we wish to overcome enter into the Father presence.

[101c]

Post #2.
The follow up on Matthew 24:24 and 36.

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled”.

may I also throw in a scripture, Mark 9:1 "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power”.

Now your Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Let us get educated in the things of God. We will do the same thing in the previous questions, on the “Greater than I”. and we will again kill two birds with one stone, and that stone being the word of God JESUS, YESHUA.

I’ll give you the answer, first. “A Two Fold Return”. in hermetic this is called “far and near” application of the scriptures. the Lord Jesus two fold return answer all of the “far” and “near” application of the scriptures.

Let’s get to it. “Matthews 24 the Lord JESUS Return Date”. this is a a “FAR” application of the scripture.
And Mark 9:1 is a “Near” application of the scripture. Let’s explain, again we’ll kill both birds, (scriptures) with one Stone, and that Stone is the Lord Jesus himself, Yeshua.

Let’s get the Far & Near application of the scripture together so that we can understand the Lord Jesus not knowing his return date, and integrate both applications of the Scriptures to get the correct understand of his RETURN(s). .

Until now, there have been some puzzling scripture that the majority, if not all, christian in the body of Christ could not definitively explain completely. Matthew 16:28" Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”. and Mark 9:1" And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power”. and lastly Luke 9:27 "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God”.

First the Near application of scriptures. “His RETURN on Pentecost” in Spirit.

Lets carefully, and fully explain this two fold return. what do we mean, two fold?, his return is in two parts. the first of his two fold return is in Spirit, (MANIFESTATION), and this return happen on the day of Pentecost. with this first of his two fold return happening before some of them standing there died. this return was in power, meaning in Spirit, (the Holy Spirit). this is the Lord Jesus “first” of his two fold return, and yes the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, for he is the truth, the life and the way.

supportive scripture, John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. can one get any clearer? this was directed to his disciples, (some standing there), and he came to them just as he said he would. he came in Spirit, the (MANIFESTATION) of the GIFTS. so how do we know this?. John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him”. the Lord Jesus said that he will “manifest himself”. but how is he manifesting himself to them, his disciple?. this is the same question Judas asked, not Iscariot, listen, John 14:22" Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?”. this is the key question in understanding our Lord's return, and his diversity. this is another eureka moment in history, as with when Moses asked God what is his name.

Notice, the Lord Jesus said that he will manifest himself to them. this is his first of his second coming, here is how he manifested himself, in (POWER, the Spiritual Gifts). Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”.

this is the manifestation that Judas asked about in John 14, and the Lord himself said that he would manifest himself. notice, Judas asked, “Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?”. again, notice Judas said, “unto us (them, the disciples) and NOT THE WORLD, which will be the coming every one will see.

here’s how the Lord Jesus manifested himself to his disciples and not the world. the manifestation of Christ is in the Spiritual “GIFTS” of the Holy Spirit/the Father. these Spiritual gifts was given on the day of Pentecost, and are listed in the scriptures, beginning at 1 Corinthians 12:7" But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal”. there’s that manifestation that Judas asked about, and what the Lord said that he would do MANIFEST himself. the full list of his “GIFTS” his manifestation are read as follows, see 1 Corinthians 12:8-11.

Now the “FAR”application of the scripture.
our Lord’s first RETURN, was in Spirit and in POWER. A Spiritual Return, a MANIFESTATION. but his next RETURN will be in bodily “APPEARANCE” which we all are looking for. Supportive scripture, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation”. question “When did he APPEAR the First TIME, with sin?”. answer, in a body of flesh, the motion of sin which he condemned sin in, and here's that body. Luke 2:25 "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him”. this word “consolation” is the Greek word, G3874 παράκλησις paraklesis (pa-ra'-klee-sis) n. which means,
1. an imploration, entreaty (urgent request (for mercy or help)).
2. an exhortation (urgent counsel, encouragement, or caution).
3. a comfort, solace.
[from G3870]
KJV: comfort, consolation, exhortation, intreaty

The person who gives “comfort” is called a COMFORTER, which the Holy Spirit is. As also in definition #1 it said, “for mercy or help“, and the Holy Ghost is called the “helper”. John 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. ANOTHER, ANOTHER, ANOTHER?. yes another, listen.

See “ANOTHER” / (HELPER), here is G243Allos which expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort”. same sort?, YES, the same sort, meaning same SAME PERSON in NATURE, but in a different “FORM”. just as Phil 2:6 states. As a babe, as a child, as Isaiah 9:6 said, “Counsellor”, meaning a person trained to give guidance on personal, social, or psychological problems, a HELPER. This was the Lord JESUS First “APPEARANCE”. hence now ANOTHER "COMFORTER. on Pentecost he “MANIFESTED”, and in the “DAY” when he Returns to Judge the world, he will “APPEAR” and be in a GLORIFIED Body, (without sin, hence the resurrection), where all eyes will seen him. Scripture, Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen”. see on Pentecost, not every eye saw him, because he MANIFESTED himself and not Appeared.


Now your last question is HOW he did it or explain how he ... "don’t know his Final return date". again the beauty of "diversity" the answer is in the "will" of God. Yes, God have a "will", a plan. and it is clearly seen in the Godly principle of Matthew 6:3. listen, "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth". question, how can one do something themselves without knowing about it. your right hand, and left hand is a part of the ONE you. the answer, because you "will" it not to be known. sound strange? NO, Let’s see how God do it. scripture, Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more". see that? "and I (will) remember their sin no more". HOLD IT, how can almighty, all knowing God not remember? Answer, it's an act of the will. he (wills) "not" to remember. just as he said in Matthew 6:3b "let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth", "let" is an act of the will. so how do all of this relates to our Lord's not knowing his return date if as some, me included say he's GOD. the answer,

Revelation chapter 5 starting at verse 1. our Lord, Jesus is sitting on the throne. what happens? the Spirit, (the Father, the Holy Ghost), comes and takes the book out of his hand, right, question, which hand did he take the book out of?, the right hand. Remember Matthew 6:3 "But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth". by the Father, (the Holy Spirit), taking the book out of his "RIGHT" hand he, the Lord Jesus, wills not to KNOW his return DATE. because the book contains all the information of what's to come and WHEN. so, only the Father, the Spirit himself (the Holy Spirit), knows because the father, being a "Diversity" of HIMSELF, took the book out of his OWN "RIGHT" hand and as Mattrhews said, "let not your left hand know what thy right hand doeth". well his Right hand is without the book.

by our Lord being in flesh and bone, and as mediator, he fulfills the DAVIDIC PROPHECY, Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD, (Father/Spirit, Holy Spirit, the Root) said unto my Lord, (the Son/the Diversified spirit/the Offspring), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool". The until is written in the book that was in the Lord's right hand, with the seals unbroken. So the Lord Jesus statement is true, no one knows only he who took the book, and that’s the FATHER, himself JESUS. and it is the Father/Holy Spirit who is now on earth, making his enemy his footstool, and he knows when to deliver up the Kingdom. .

Another mystery cleared up, by knowing diversity, KNOWING the word of God.

again, if you cannot grasp this understanding copy it to a word processor and take your time in reading it.

PICYJAG

[Ellis Bell]

Originally Posted by 2ner

Jesus taught his followers the Lord's Prayer, which has us pray to God the Father. He also has all those who are burdened to come unto him (not unto God) and he will give them rest. But, again, he himself prayed the Father to forgive those who persecuted him.

Many Christians see Jesus as God. It seems a minority see Jesus as son of God. Does it matter? if so, how?

Only in the way we see ourselves, worthy of being saved.

(ab lib)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoso ever believes in Him, shall be saved.

God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, the world was condemned already. Men love darkness rather than light.
__________

Nicodemus asked Jesus how can I be reborn? Must I reenter my mother's womb a second time?
And Jesus said to him, flesh is born of flesh, spirit is born of spirit.
___________
All things in Christ come together. Most importantly, 'forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".

When we pray, we end our prayers, 'through Jesus Christ, amen', as Christ is our go between to our Father, who presents our case for forgiveness.
Born of flesh, His spirit ascended unto the Heavens to take His rightful place at the right hand of God.

Jesus also said, if I speak to you of earthly things and you do not believe, then how will you believe if I speak to you of Heavenly things?

So how does Nicodemus become reborn; how does Nicodemus enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?"

Jesus said, 'no one comes unto the kingdom of Heaven, but by (though) Me.'

Through the asking of forgiveness (and believing in the power of God's love to forgive us) we are reborn, through the believing in Christ and the ascension of His spirit into Heaven, we are saved.


God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Through Christ we come together as one, in the Holy spirit.

[n..Xuipa]

and to see how men fight the concept of the trinity.. wait till they find out there is more to be added..

for fun study the "Kai's" in REV 22: 16 and 17..

[101c]

Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God”. ME IS A SINGLE PERSON DESIGNATION. God just told us that "HE" is the Father and the Son.

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he”. again the Holy Spirit tells us that he is the Father, the First, and the Son Last.

Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me”.

WHO IS "HE"? Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. HOW PLAIN CAN ONE GET.

THE “ARM” OF GOD IS GOD HIMSELF IN FLESH.

the ARM is the "Objective", and the Spirit is the "Subjective". in other words, the ARM is "concrete", and the Spirit is "abstract".

or to put it another way the Father, the Spirit, the First, the Root, the subjective, the alpha, is the "Holy Spirit" without flesh & blood.

the Son, the diversified spirit, the Last, the Offspring, the Objective, the Omega, is the "Holy Spirit" With, With, With, flesh and bone, but no blood.

THE SAME PERSON FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION.

PICYJAG

[n..Xuipa]

yes there it is....I figure the church will take it about as well as the Jews took learning of the Son. And about just like how Satan took the news men not angels would be God's children.. .. mostly no one took it so well.. NO they didn't. because there is only one God right? .. He just has an Arm and a Spirit that He is sharing himself with those He has chosen.

and you missed that kai.. that makes the son and his wife one.. still He/ they is that last.. that part of Him( the Father ) in them is still the last and only God .
that part in US his children is still Him in us..

[101c]

The subjection "within" the Spirit when the Kingdom is delivered up, that question is answered by "diversity".

The Lord Jesus if God don't know his return date, that question is answered by "diversity".

This generation shall not pass away until, that question is answered by "diversity".

The Father is GREATER than I question, it is answered by "diversity".

Yes, "diversity" is what the apostles was taught, "diversity" is what the "disciple" was taught, and "diversity" is what the early church was taught.

AND THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE TEACH. "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man". 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (KJV).

PICYJAG