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This topic is an open challenge for anyone who believes Scripture teaches flat earth. I would also recommend not overloading this discussion by posting 100 verses at a time. That is very time consuming to go through them all. For more productive discussion it would be polite to start with one or two verses. But that's my recommendation and you may post the usual 100 verses at a time and I will still answer all 100. But merely listing a verse will not be proof of interpretation. So you might want to find the most reputable support for flat earth interpretation before posting verse.
It's an interesting topic, but I don't think it's a welcomed discussion because these threads are usually heavily mocked.
Again, it's an interesting topic, especially if you are not invested either way.
It's an interesting topic, but I don't think it's a welcomed discussion because these threads are usually heavily mocked.
Again, it's an interesting topic, especially if you are not invested either way.
Well, you know, its been a widespread movement, especially on FB, but also on other sites as well. I know a Christian should have better things to do with his time and mind other than debate the shape of the earth. However, as it is right now, this flat earth movement has become a bane to creationism and has spread like a virus around the internet. Therefore I dropped everything I was doing to research the matter in full. I did just that. So I'm not sure if this forum is loaded with flat earthers or not as I am new to this forum and have yet to know people here. I think I will just leave the matter up for debate and if nobody here wants to discuss it then this topic will die. I will not be offended by that. I'd rather see this topic fade to the bottomless pits of this page. But if it is to remain a topic then I will prove the Bible teaches round earth, exlusively (not to mention how all other heresies of flat earthers will also be answered). I have mastered this well and prepared to challenge the most distinguished professors in the world.
Well, you know, its been a widespread movement, especially on FB, but also on other sites as well. I know a Christian should have better things to do with his time and mind other than debate the shape of the earth. However, as it is right now, this flat earth movement has become a bane to creationism and has spread like a virus around the internet. Therefore I dropped everything I was doing to research the matter in full. I did just that. So I'm not sure if this forum is loaded with flat earthers or not as I am new to this forum and have yet to know people here. I think I will just leave the matter up for debate and if nobody here wants to discuss it then this topic will die. I will not be offended by that. I'd rather see this topic fade to the bottomless pits of this page. But if it is to remain a topic then I will prove the Bible teaches round earth, exlusively (not to mention how all other heresies of flat earthers will also be answered). I have mastered this well and prepared to challenge the most distinguished professors in the world.
Okay. Give 3 examples of how one can prove for themselves the earth is spherical.
This topic is an open challenge for anyone who believes Scripture teaches flat earth. I would also recommend not overloading this discussion by posting 100 verses at a time. That is very time consuming to go through them all. For more productive discussion it would be polite to start with one or two verses. But that's my recommendation and you may post the usual 100 verses at a time and I will still answer all 100. But merely listing a verse will not be proof of interpretation. So you might want to find the most reputable support for flat earth interpretation before posting verse.
many in the past, believed the earth were flat. they were afraid to sail too far in fear of going off of the edge. but Jehovah basically told humans that the Earth was round, (Isa. 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in). peace
many in the past, believed the earth were flat. they were afraid to sail too far in fear of going off of the edge. but Jehovah basically told humans that the Earth was round, (Isa. 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in). peace
Correct. Even the pagans belived in a round earth, not flat. Thatw a s later idea.
Atlas holding the earth on his shoulders and ... it was a globe.
Eratosthenes a 3rd century BC Greek actually determined the circumference of the earth.
Early man could tell, as Eratosthenes did, by watching a ship drop down until olny the top of the mast was visible. This showed them the earth was ound not flat. Only people who have no knowledge of what was believed then, foolishly believe they believed the earth was flat. They didn't.
A round Earth and an Earth being flat are not mutually exclusive. I have been watching some videos from flat Earth supporters and their view is it is a circle or round plate. In a book about the history of the flat earth it mentions one early Christian cleric who thought the Earth was flat and apparently he was widely ignored.
I am not a Christian and don't know scripture however all I have read on the topic by Christian times most people thought the Earth was a sphere. Maybe not all the pheasants as their thoughts are not recorded. As expatCA days a flat earth is a later idea, the book which I read several years ago placed that into I think 18th or 19th century.
He is invited on this forum. He said this and that but has no ancient proof to back up his claim. Even moreso is how the most reputable scholars of Christianity strongly oppose the assumptions of Seely & Helser. If you wanna prove the Bible teaches flat earth you're gonna have to abandon the video world in sink deep into the world of ancient literature.
I doubt that you even listened to his lecture.
Heiser simply reflects what scholars who study ANE cultures have long known, which is that the ANE peoples held the cosmological view that I've already described. And it is the ancient literature which includes the Old Testament, which proves that they believed not only in a flat earth, but in the other things that have beenmentioned.
Here is the Wiki entry on the ANE cosmology. Note the references to the sources of the statements.
Biblical cosmology
Biblical cosmology is the biblical writers' conception of the cosmos as an organised, structured entity, including its origin, order, meaning and destiny.[¹][²] The Bible was formed over many centuries, involving many authors, and reflects shifting patterns of religious belief; consequently, its cosmology is not always consistent.[³][⁴] Nor do the biblical texts necessarily represent the beliefs of all Jews or Christians at the time they were put into writing: the majority of those making up Hebrew Bible or Old Testament in particular represent the beliefs of only a small segment of the ancient Israelite community, the members of a late Judean religious tradition centered in Jerusalem and devoted to the exclusive worship of Yahweh.[⁵]
The ancient Israelites envisaged a universe made up of a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water, heaven above, underworld below.[⁶] Humans inhabited earth during life and the underworld after death, and the underworld was morally neutral;⁷[] only in Hellenistic times (after c.330 BCE) did Jews begin to adopt the Greek idea that it would be a place of punishment for misdeeds, and that the righteous would enjoy an afterlife in heaven.[⁸] In this period too the older three-level cosmology in large measure gave way to the Greek concept of a spherical earth suspended in space at the center of a number of concentric heavens.[⁶]
Earth
Babylonian Map of the World (c.600 BCE). The Old Testament concept of the earth was very similar: a flat circular earth ringed by a world-ocean, with fabulous islands or mountains beyond at the "ends of the earth".[⁴⁹]
Cosmic geography
In the Old Testament period, the earth was most commonly thought of as a flat disc floating on water.[17] The concept was apparently quite similar to that depicted in a Babylonian world-map from about 600 BCE: a single circular continent bounded by a circular sea,[⁵⁰] and beyond the sea a number of equally spaced triangles called nagu, "distant regions", apparently islands although possibly mountains.[⁵¹] The Old Testament likewise locates islands alongside the earth; (Psalm 97:1) these are the "ends of the earth" according to Isaiah 41:5, the extreme edge of Job's circular horizon (Job 26:10) where the vault of heaven is supported on mountains.[⁵²] Other OT passages suggest that the sky rests on pillars (Psalm 75:3, 1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6), on foundations (Psalms 18:7 and 82:5), or on "supports" (Psalm 104:5),[⁵³] while the Book of Job imagines the cosmos as a vast tent, with the earth as its floor and the sky as the tent itself; from the edges of the sky God hangs the earth over "nothing", meaning the vast Ocean, securely supported by being tied to the sky (Job 26:7).[⁵⁴] If the technical means by which Yahweh keeps the earth from sinking into the chaos-waters are unclear, it is nevertheless clear that he does so by virtue of his personal power.[⁵⁵]
Babylonian Map of the World
(c.600 BCE). The Old Testament
concept of the earth was very
similar: a flat circular earth ringed
by a world-ocean, with fabulous
islands or mountains beyond at the
"ends of the earth". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology
The Bible fully reflects the ancient beliefs of a flat earth, a hard firmament covering the earth, pillars supporting the earth, and so on. Heiser made reference to some of the passages.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-11-2018 at 10:16 AM..
Here is the Strong's lexicon for proof there is no solid dome.
Firmament/expanse from The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
"H7549. רָקִיעַ râqîyaʻ, raw-kee'-ah; from H7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
(1) Raqiya means that which is fixed and steadfast, rather than that which is solid. (1a) The application to the heavenly bodies is simple and beautful: (b) they are not fickle and uncertain in their movements, but are regulated by a law that they cannot pass over. (2) It comes from raqa (7554) which means spread out. The firmament, then is that which is spread or stretched out--hence an expanse. Thus it is extended and fixed, or fixed space. (3) The interplanetary spaces are measured out by God, and though the stars are ever moving, they generally preserve fixed relative positions; their movements are not erratic, not in straight lines, but in orbits, and thus, though ever changing, they are always the same."
As you can plainly read the word "raqiya" does not mean solid dome. Flat earthers reject the reliability of Strong's and just go by what memes and youtube says. In other words, they oppose the entire body of Christ from the beginning up to the present now. With this kind of rejection towards authority the movement cannot be considered Christian. There is no solid dome in the Bible.
Proof of plurality of "heavens"
Heaven/Heavens defined in The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
"8064. [420x] Shamayin, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused sing.
Shameh, shaw-mah'; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perb. alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): -- heaven (39x), air [21x], astrologer + 1895 [1x].
Introduction: Sometimes it signifies the atmosphere immediately surrounding the earth, in which the fowls of the air fly. Sometimes it is used of the space in which the clouds are floating. In other places it refers to the vast expanse through which the starts are moving in their courses. It is opposed to sheowl (7585), the one being regarded as a place of exaltation, the other of degradation; the one being represented as the dwelling place of the Most High and the angels of God, the other as the abode of the dead. It includes all space that is not occupied by the terrestrial globe, and extends from the air we breathe and the winds we feel around us to the firmament or expanse that contains the innumerable stars. This is includes, and exceeds for where our intellect ceases to operate, and fails to find a limit to the extension of space, there faith comes in. And while before the eye of the body there is spread out an infinity of space, the possession of the super-material nature brings us into communion with a Being whose nature and condition cannot adequately be described by terms of locality or extension. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The countless stars are not only known and numbered by Him, but are called into existence and fixed in their courses by His will and wisdom. Where He is, there the true heaven is; and the glories of the firmament faintly shadow forth the ineffable bliss that those must realize who are brought into relationship with Him.
(1) Shamayim is the usual for the sky and the realm of the sky (1a) birds fly (Duet.4:17). (1b) This area, high above the ground below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often a locus of visions (1 Chr. 21:16). (2) This word represents an area farther removed from the earth's surface (2a) from which come such things as (2a1) frost (Job 38:29), (2a2) snow (Is 55:10), (2a3) fire (Gen 19:24), (2a4) dust (Deut 28:24), (2a5) hail (Josh 10:11), and (a26) rain (Gen 8:2). (2b) This realm is God's storehouse; God is (3a) the dispenser of the stores and Lord of the realm (Deut 28:12). (2c) This meaning of shamayim occurs in Gen 1:7-8. (3) Shamayim also represents the realm in which the sun, moon, and stars are located (Gen 1:14). (4) The phrase "heaven and earth" may denote the entire creation (Gen 1:1). (5) Heaven is the dwelling place of God (Ps 2:4; Deut 4:39; 26:15). (5a) Another expression representing the dwelling place of God is "the highest heaven" [literally, the heaven of heavens] (Deut 10:14). (5b) This does not indicate height, but also an absolute--i.e., God's abode is a unique realm not to be identified with a physical creation. Syn.: 7834. See TWOT--2407a; BDB--1029c, 116a."
Here is a proper reading of Genesis chapter 1 in perfect modern grammar. No dome and no sun, moon and stars in sky.
The word raqa (a variant of the word râqîyaʻ), in Job 37:18 refers to the sky being spread out as hard or as strong as a cast metal mirror.
In ancient Jewish writings outside of the Bible, 3 Baruch 3:6-8, reflecting ancient beliefs of a hard, solid sky, has men saying,
''Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of 8 brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest.'' [Bolding mine]
And by the way, Paul H. Seely supports his statements that the ancient peoples, and not just the people of the Ancient Near East, believed that the sky was a solid dome. But one needs to actually read what he says, instead of dismissing what he said when you don't even know what he said.
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