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Exactly. While the believer can suffer loss of reward at the judgment seat of Christ, his eternal salvation is never in jeopardy as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
The reward is a place in the kingdom. So yes..."salvation" would be in jeopardy.
Brother I think you must have misread Mikes post, Mike is saying salvation is not what is being talked about in those scriptures and if salvation is not spoken about in those scriptures then neither is the judgment dealing with salvation.
In other words those who believe in eternal torment cannot use those scriptures to teach God will eternally torment anyone.
But once you have accepted the unsound teachings of eternal damnation, it is almost impossible, apart from the grace of God, to restore that person to the correct teaching. One that actually takes faith to believe without condemning others.
Quite simply, one is saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. But once saved it is not necessary to maintain that faith in order to retain salvation. Faith is simply the means by which one takes hold of the free gift of salvation. But faith is not a channel through which salvation continually flows so that if the connection is broken salvation is cut off and lost. Once a person has believed in Christ he has been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. When a person receives Christ as Savior he is adopted into the family of God. He is entered into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He is sealed unto the day of redemption. He is kept by the power of God. Once a person has received Jesus as Savior he is eternally secure even if he loses his faith afterwards.
I've never heard that one before. [Though i think i'd stick with Heb.11:6 & Jn.3:36 as quoted before.] I wonder if all those who believe in "eternal security" (or OSAS or "Perseverance of the saints") hold to such a view.
If i understand your viewpoint, it is that 1 Tim.1:19-20 refers to believers who lost their faith but are still saved while in unbelief. The same passage refers to such being given over to Satan for correction. The only other passage referring to such a giving over to Satan for correction is 1 Cor.5:4-5. But there its purpose is to bring a so-called "brother", who was "wicked" (vs.11-13) to salvation (v.5). He wasn't saved & was receiving the same exact discipline prescribed by Paul as those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 (those who you interpret to be saved while in unbelief & having thown away a good conscience, i.e. living in sin, just as the one referred to in 1 Cor.5:4-5. If anything those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 appear worse than he of 1 Cor.5:4-5, yet you're saying the worse is saved while the better of the two needs salvation. Likewise those of Heb.6 & 10 seem worse than the guy who needs salvation in 1 Cor.5:4-5).
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Regarding Heb.10:26-29, the passage is speaking of divine temporal judgment. Not eternal judgment. The believer who goes on sinning can come under severe divine discipline in time, even the sin unto death in which the believer is taken out of this life and taken home to heaven in disgrace.
It seems these people, like in Heb.6:4-6, were no longer of the "common faith" (Titus 1:4; compare "common salvation" Jude 1:3). Jude connects salvation with faith:
Jude1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Hebrews 10:26 states that ''If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.'' At first glance that sounds like a bad thing. But it's actually quite the opposite. All Hebrews 10:26 is doing is restating what was already said in Hebrews 10:18 which says, ''Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.'' And Hebrews 10:18 comes on the heels of the writer of Hebrews' statement that Jesus had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 10:26 along with Hebrews 10:18 is saying that there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin because sin isn't an issue anymore (as far as the issue of eternal salvation is concerned) since the sacrifice for our sins was finished on the cross. So sin simply isn't an issue anymore. It was dealt with finally and totally at the cross and because at the cross the certificate of debt that was against us was nailed to the cross (Col. 2:13-14). At the cross sin became a non-issue with regard to salvation.
However, although sin is not the issue in salvation and the believer cannot lose his salvation because of sin, sin does have ramifications in time in the form of divine discipline (see Hebrews 12:4-8), and can result in loss or eternal rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.
If sin is "not an issue anymore", then how can an unbeliever be lost forever, even if he commits a sin that cannot be pardoned? And what of the need for confession of sin & walking in the light as conditions for forgiveness & cleansing of sin by His blood, i.e. salvation (1 Jn.1:7, 9)?
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Also, I do not believe there is the opportunity for salvation after death. But I'm not going to get into an argument about Universalism versus eternal punishment. I simply posted on this thread to explain that Hebrews 6:4-6 has nothing to do with the issue of salvation.
Sure, no problem. I was already quite aware you feel you've had your fill of that topic for one lifetime.
“impossible…to renew unto repentance†which some ETers take to mean they can never be saved
1. but does Heb.6:4-6 mean it is impossible for men, or for God, to renew such a one to repentance?
2. does it imply it is impossible forever, or could it be for a limited time, e.g. for this age & the next?
Re 1. above i think of the scripture which asks, is anything too difficult for the Lord? Jesus said,
With man this is impossible, but with God all is possible. So i’d suggest that a possible interpretation
of the Hebrews passage in harmony with UR is that it is impossible for the man himself or other men
to renew him to repentance, but not impossible for God.
Even some bible commentators who do not support UR admit the Hebrews passage is not saying it is
impossible for God to save them & that it is possible for Him to do so. Just that He has chosen not to,
for various reasons.
In Acts 4:8 we read of a lame man who was unable to walk. It was impossible for him to walk.
The same Greek word is used for “impossible†as in Hebrews 6. While it was impossible for the
man to walk or cure himself of his inability to walk, it was possible with God’s help. In
verses 9-10 he was healed. In the age to come when all are resurrected by the Lord will they
not also be able to walk?
If God hardens a heart so he cannot let the people of Israel go, then it is impossible for him
to repent (change his mind) and let them go. But if God later allows him to let them go, then
it was not impossible for him to do that forever, but only while God hardened his heart.
While God hardened his heart he was not allowed or permitted to let the people go. The Hebrews
6:4-6 passage also speaks of people doing something only “if God permit†(v.3). So might those for
whom it is impossible to be renewed unto repentance be that way because God does not “permit†it?
Could He at some point in the future permit them again? I don’t see anything in Heb.6:4-6 that
says otherwise.
The Hebrews passage paints a contrast between those who can go on to maturity “if God permitsâ€
and those who are not being permitted, as it is presently impossible for them. Why? Because
God does not presently “permit†it to such as those described in the context?
Re 2. above Heb 6 has similarities to the unpardonable sin of the 4 gospels, which is not forgiven in this
age or the age to come. Both passage speak of the Spirit of the Lord & the age to come. Could
this gospels’ account be what the Hebrews writer had in mind? If so, then it leaves open the
possibility of their repentance & pardon in the age after the one to come, since the Scripture
speaks of more than one future age.
For additional perspectives on Hebrews 6:4-6, there is the following:
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Heb.6:6, NASB)
Since our salvation can't be lost(I pet 1:23) that verse tells us what man can't do. Nothing is impossible for God. When one is born naturally, they can't be unborn. The same is true if being born again. When one is born spiritually, they also can't be unborn.
Yes, I know some Christians believe that. I didn't say anything about "eternal life." Those are your words. I said, "The reward is a place in the kingdom." You do not get rewarded for passively existing. You are rewarded because you're obedient to God.
Yes, I know some Christians believe that. I didn't say anything about "eternal life." Those are your words. I said, "The reward is a place in the kingdom." You do not get rewarded for passively existing. You are rewarded because you're obedient to God.
Perhaps it is more like this:
Eternal Life/salvation = place in the kingdom
Eternal Life + obedience/works = place in the kingdom with rewards
It used to sound very much like that to me. That it was saying that it was impossible to renew a person to repentance after he had been enlightened, born again, tasted of the goodness of God and then went back to his old ways of living like a heathen, there was no hope for such a person. At this point, I don't really worry about what the scripture means because I've read so many different commentaries on it - I'm really not sure what it means, but also I am not concerned that I am in danger of losing my faith or turning away from the truth. It is a difficult scripture for people who have never been fully persuaded of their assurance of God's promise of salvation. It is one of those scriptures that can torment a person who is not 100 percent sure about God's goodness and mercy.
Or maybe a scripture to scare the hell out of folks to keep them in the pews and tithing...
I think it means that if you at one point believed (with your heart) in God and his word, but later, for whatever reason, you started to reject the word...you're basically lost forever. Because you were shown the way, you believed it to be the way and then you consciously decided to reject God and his guidance. It's basically the spiritual equivalent to treason. Most believers will be tempted off the path at some point...even multiple times. But to know in your heart that the scriptures are God's words yet consciously reject them...you are essentially rejecting your creator.
I think it's different for someone who is wavering and isn't yet sure about God. It's for those who were firm in their belief.
I've never heard that one before. [Though i think i'd stick with Heb.11:6 & Jn.3:36 as quoted before.] I wonder if all those who believe in "eternal security" (or OSAS or "Perseverance of the saints") hold to such a view.
Eternal security (OSAS) which I do believe in, is not 'perseverance of the saints' which is a doctrine held by Calvinists. If I remember correctly, according to that doctrine, if you persevere in the faith to the end of your life, you are saved, and were saved even before coming to faith, and were predestined to be saved. But if you don't persevere to the end, even though you were faithful for most of your life, then it turns out that you weren't predestined after all.
There are eternal security passages such as Romans 6:3-8, 2 Timothy 2:11-13, and John 6:37-40.
In 2 Timothy 2:11-13,
2 Tim. 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him:
Every believer HAS died with Christ (see Romans 6:3-8) and therefore WILL live with Christ. The word 'if' is in the Greek first class condition which assumes it to be true for the sake of argument.
12] If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He will also deny us;
Verse 12 is not referring to being denied salvation because verse 11 stated that since we have died with Christ we will live with Him. It is referring to being denied rewards such as ruling with Him. Read the parable of the minas in Luke 19 in which some will rule over ten cities, others over five cities. There will be different levels of rewards and rulership responsibilities in the kingdom.
13] If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Even if the believer should become faithless he remains eternally saved because Jesus cannot deny Himself. Every believer has been entered into the body of Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see Galatians 3:27-28; Romans 6:3-8) and Jesus is not going to 'amputate' any part of Himself.
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If i understand your viewpoint, it is that 1 Tim.1:19-20 refers to believers who lost their faith but are still saved while in unbelief. The same passage refers to such being given over to Satan for correction. The only other passage referring to such a giving over to Satan for correction is 1 Cor.5:4-5. But there its purpose is to bring a so-called "brother", who was "wicked" (vs.11-13) to salvation (v.5). He wasn't saved & was receiving the same exact discipline prescribed by Paul as those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 (those who you interpret to be saved while in unbelief & having thown away a good conscience, i.e. living in sin, just as the one referred to in 1 Cor.5:4-5. If anything those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 appear worse than he of 1 Cor.5:4-5, yet you're saying the worse is saved while the better of the two needs salvation. Likewise those of Heb.6 & 10 seem worse than the guy who needs salvation in 1 Cor.5:4-5).
Those mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:19-20 were indeed believers. But their faith had been shipwrecked.
But what you are doing here is making the mistake of assuming that a person's personal character has any bearing on his eternal salvation. Some people have better character than others. But no matter how good a character a person has, it doesn't measure up to God's standard of perfection. No one deserves to be eternally saved based on his own character, on how good he is. The issue in salvation is faith in Christ. When a person receives Christ as Savior he is credited with the perfect righteousness of Jesus. That is what God looks at with regard to the issue of salvation. Not the person's own personal character. See my comments below.
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It seems these people, like in Heb.6:4-6, were no longer of the "common faith" (Titus 1:4; compare "common salvation" Jude 1:3). Jude connects salvation with faith:
Jude1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
If sin is "not an issue anymore", then how can an unbeliever be lost forever, even if he commits a sin that cannot be pardoned? And what of the need for confession of sin & walking in the light as conditions for forgiveness & cleansing of sin by His blood, i.e. salvation (1 Jn.1:7, 9)?
While the sin issue was taken care of at the cross and is no longer an issue in salvation, there still remains the problem of man's relative and imperfect righteousness in contrast with God's absolute and perfect righteousness. There is no compatibility between man's relative righteousness and God's absolute righteousness. Therefore, even though sin is not an issue in salvation, unregenerate man doesn't have a righteousness which measures up to God's perfect righteousness and therefore is not qualified to have an eternal relationship with God. So the unbeliever remains under condemnation even though Jesus died for his sins. That problem is resolved when at the moment of faith in Christ Jesus God imputes or credits to the account of the one who has believed, the very righteousness of Christ Himself. That is the subject of Romans chapters 3 through 5. When a person believes in Christ he is credited with Jesus' own righteousness and qualified to live with God forever.
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Sure, no problem. I was already quite aware you feel you've had your fill of that topic for one lifetime.
On this forum at least, it has proven to be a waste of time.
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