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Paul speaks of the Last Trump, the very scripture that is supposedly speaking of a rapture. Does somebody believe that Paul just called the day,'' The Last Trump,'' from his own imagination? Paul was speaking of days and traditions practiced and known by the people of God for thousands of years. There is a first Trump, a Last Trump, and a Great trump, but if you want to actually teach of these things in the Christianity forum, people will report you all day long for bringing things of Judaism into the Christianity forum. Instead of studying the Last Trump, Christians would rather use their own imaginations to make things up about holy days they reject. How can anyone be taken serious when they want to have an opinion about a thing that they wont even study? Before you can have an opinion, you have to be willing to study the subject matter.
The pattern, the pattern, they refuse to study the pattern, lol.....
Paul speaks of the Last Trump, the very scripture that is supposedly speaking of a rapture. Does somebody believe that Paul just called the day,'' The Last Trump,'' from his own imagination? Paul was speaking of days and traditions practiced and known by the people of God for thousands of years. There is a first Trump, a Last Trump, and a Great trump, but if you want to actually teach of these things in the Christianity forum, people will report you all day long for bringing things of Judaism into the Christianity forum. Instead of studying the Last Trump, Christians would rather use their own imaginations to make things up about holy days they reject. How can anyone be taken serious when they want to have an opinion about a thing that they wont even study? Before you can have an opinion, you have to be willing to study the subject matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
The pattern, the pattern, they refuse to study the pattern, lol.....
You are just another person who doesn't believe what Jesus said.
Whoever will not keep the laws of Moses and then turns around to teach others not to keep the laws of Moses will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.
HEY, does that sound like you?
Whoever will keep the laws of Moses and then teach others to keep the laws of Moses will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus spoke of people like you, the lawless ones, and we were told about the apostasy, the falling away.
Even if you didn't keep the law, you keep Babylonian feasts instead of the feasts of God, you converted to another religion and here you are still speaking about Jesus. Messiah brought a covenant for Ephraim and Judah, which one are you? NEITHER.
They also told Jesus that he had a demon and that he was a drunk, so your finger pointing does not bother me.
I can't judge that dude, he would have to be in the religion of Jesus for me to judge him, I don't judge Hindus or Muslims either. I mean, we could always slap up the covenant to see who it pertains to, but I can tell you, it pertains to Ephraim and Judah, and those first Gentile converts became Ephraim when they joined the Jews in the same religion, but that only lasted 100 years.
No Gentile has come under the covenant of Messiah for 2000 years, the church made sure that no Gentile would join the Jews, the church outlawed the feasts of Jesus and the laws of God, and they stopped coming under the covenant.
We can always put Jeremiah 31 up, or maybe Ezekiel 37 to show who is in the covenant, and it is extremely precise. Ephraim and Judah become one people under one leader and both of them absolutely adore the law. Christians claiming a covenant under Jesus is just a claim today.
That doesn't mean they are not saved, it just means they aren't Ephraim or Judah, Ephraim and Judah have an inheritance in Israel, the rest of the world will be ruled by Ephraim and Judah.
Just when I'm starting to think that you don't possess half a clue, you write another post & remove all doubt.
They also told Jesus that he had a demon and that he was a drunk, so your finger pointing does not bother me.
I am not pointing fingers man, I quote Jesus and I believe what he says, I can't help if you don't believe what he says.......
Here is another saying of Jesus pertaining to the lawless, people who reject the commandments of God. Jesus warned us just as the disciples warned us of a great apostasy where People would stand against everything called of God or worshipped of God, they told us about the lawlessness to come, and that lawlessness came 100 years after Jesus died.
Now people pretend that Christianity was not a legal sect of Judaism, and it doesn't matter if I show Paul STILL IN JUDAISM, STILL keeping the laws of Moses, Christians will still reject the idea because they begin reading the New Testament with bias, they read the New Testament thinking that Gentiles never converted to Judaism.
The day of the Lord refers to any period of direct divine judgment. There were days of the Lord in the Old Testament and there will be a day of the Lord in the future. And it begins with the Tribulation. Revelation 6:17 refers to 'the great day of their wrath' as having come.
I said that in the post- Tribulational rapture view everyone gets resurrected when Christ returns. Which is why the post-Triblational rapture view is wrong.
Actually, Revelation 7:9-14 is set in heaven during the Tribulation and those mentioned are understood to be Tribulational martyrs who are in heaven during the Tribulation. I quote three theologians regarding this.
1.) Quoting Charles C. Ryrie on Revelation 7:14;
''John was evidently puzzling over the identity of this group (scarcely imaginable if the group were the church saints), and God, who knows our thoughts, answered his perplexity through one of the elders. They are expicitly identified as ''the ones who come out of the great tribulation.''
That they are distinct from the church appears from the following considerations: Believers living at the time of the rapture of the church will have no place or part in the tribulation; these people will live during some of the tribulation days, be killed, and received into heaven. . .''
Revelation, Charles C. Ryrie, p, 61
2.) John F. Walvoord states the following concerning Revelation 7:14;
7:13-17. One of the 24 elders asked about the origin of those who stood in white robes. Is it not significant that if the 24 elders represent the church these described here are a different group of the saved? When John indicated that he did not now the answer (v. 14a) the elder himself answered the question as to who this multitude was and where they came from: These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
It seems evident that these ''who have come out of the Great Tribulation'' have been martyred and were then safe in heaven. . .
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p.p. 949-50
3.) Robert Dean of West Houston Bible Church in his lesson on Revelation 7 says this;
Beginning in Revelation 7:13 we have the explanation of these events through the instrumentality of one of the elders. NASB “Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?’” He asks this question in order to focus John’s attention to think through who these are and why they are there. [14] “I [John] said to him, ‘My lord, you know [so tell me].’ And he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’” This is a simple answer connecting these who are before the throne with those who are martyred in the fifth seal judgment. [15] “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.” The word for “tabernacle” is a word that means His dwelling. What we see here is a foreshadowing of something that does not take place for all of mankind until Revelation 21. In Revelation 21 we have the creation of the new heavens and the new earth in verse 1, and then John says in v.3 NASB “And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, ‘Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, [4] and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be {any} death; there will no longer be {any} mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away’.”
These martyrs in Revelation chapter seven get a foretaste of that as the Father spreads His tabernacle over them and there is this special ministry that occurs related to the fact that they have been martyred and have gone through this intensified suffering in the Tribulation period. Revelation 7:16 NASB “They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat,” indicating that there would no longer be the suffering associated with living in the fallen cosmic system and that not only would there be an end to this suffering but there is a special ministry of grace to them, and this is seen in verse 17. NASB “for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God [the Father] will wipe every tear from their eyes.” [Bolding mine]
That sounds like Jehovah's Witness' doctrine. Those who are saved is not limited to 144,000 people. The 144,000 mentioned are Jewish witnesses during the Tribulation. As Revelation chapter 7 shows, there will be a vast multitude of people who are martyred during the Tribulation and will be in heaven.
The judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-45) actually takes place before the Millennial kingdom is set up. Jesus will return, hold the judgment of the nations which will take place in the valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3:1-3), and then set up the Millennial kingdom. The goats represent unbelievers who will be sent into the eternal fire according to Matthew 25:41.
Your understanding of the pertinent scriptures needs work. As shown, your understanding of Revelation 7:14 is not shared by the theologians that I quoted. And again, the day of the Lord does begin with the Tribulation. The day of the Lord refers to any period of direct divine judgment, and that is exactly what the Tribulation is.
Your best bet is to stop reading commentaries, because theologians don't know anything about prophecy. They support a pre-trib rapture that is false. Theologians, pastors are educated by men, not by God. They lean upon their own understanding.
Your best bet is to stop reading commentaries, because theologians don't know anything about prophecy. They support a pre-trib rapture that is false. Theologians, pastors are educated by men, not by God. They lean upon their own understanding.
I am not pointing fingers man, I quote Jesus and I believe what he says, I can't help if you don't believe what he says.......
Here is another saying of Jesus pertaining to the lawless, people who reject the commandments of God. Jesus warned us just as the disciples warned us of a great apostasy where People would stand against everything called of God or worshipped of God, they told us about the lawlessness to come, and that lawlessness came 100 years after Jesus died.
Now people pretend that Christianity was not a legal sect of Judaism, and it doesn't matter if I show Paul STILL IN JUDAISM, STILL keeping the laws of Moses, Christians will still reject the idea because they begin reading the New Testament with bias, they read the New Testament thinking that Gentiles never converted to Judaism.
If we can't both believe what Jesus said, then how could we even debate about anything?
I believe everything Jesus said and the rest of the bible, but as peter said you are twisting the scriptures to fit what you want to believe. If the law is to be followed, then why did God allow the temple to be destroyed, pretty big clue there.
How can you follow the law without a temple? You can't. God's favor passed from the nation of Israel to his chosen people. Remember they rejected the messiah.
Didn't Paul say that it wasn't about circumcision or uncircumcision, but the circumcision of the heart.
When Jesus was speaking about the law, they were still under the law, but that also pertains to the law of liberty now.
Why would gentiles convert to Judaism, when all they needed to do is believe in the messiah. I must have missed the part were Jesus said to preach the good news of the kingdom, baptising them in my name and "oh, well your at it, convert the gentiles to judaism."
Romans 11, Paul said that due to unbelief that most of the nation of Israel had been cut off and blinded. Jesus fulfilled the law.
There is no doubt the apostles still followed the law, they were jews. Jesus followed the law and taught something new from his father.
During the millenial reign, part of the law will still be used by the jews that make it thru the great tribulation.
Unless someone is able to follow the whole law, all 600+ laws then if he breaks 1 then he has broken them all. The law was not able to cover their sins leading to eternal life, that's where Jesus stepped in. To follow the law now is to make Jesus death/resurrection for nothing.
Just when I'm starting to think that you don't possess half a clue, you write another post & remove all doubt.
I base my belief on the actual history of Israel, on what is actually written, what is actually written in the covenant, and how one goes about to be counted in that covenant. The covenant is not for Gentiles and Jews, it is for Gentiles who come converting to the same religion as Jews in order to become one with Jews.
I don't sit here and make up a covenant of my own, I sit here and quote the actual covenant, and that covenant is only for Ephraim and Judah, and so I ask a Gentile how he thinks he is Ephraim. Gentiles are grafted through Ephraim, not Judah, Gentiles have to do exactly what the covenant states if they want to be considered,'' Ephraim,'' and one with Jews, and that Gentile can only come as a virgin, a submissive virgin to the will of her husband, A Jew.
There were Gentiles who latched on to the promise given to Ephraim, and Paul is explaining this in Romans where he explains how he was not a Jew. Paul was of Ephraim, he was a true member of Ephraim because of the fact that he lived as a Jew, amongst Jews in the religion of God, and when reading Romans, Paul is explaining the history of his own people, not the history of Judah or the Jews, he is explaining how his people were wiped out, and how they became Gentiles through their lawlessness and unbelief. Paul takes the promise of Hosea 2 that is written to Ephraim, and Paul shows just how the Gentile can be grafted through the promise to Ephraim when he comes and repents of his lawlessness, and he married a Jew to be redeemed under the name of Ephraim/Israel.
Most people do not know the history of the two kingdoms to get a grasp on what is what, and who is who.
Jesus didn't come offering a betrothal to Jews in order to redeem Jews to be Jews. Jesus didn't come offering Jews a betrothal if they would only come as virgins to marry a Jew. A Jew does not need to marry a Jew to be a Jew, Behold, he is a Jew.
Gentiles have one chance to come under the covenant to become co-heirs with the Jew, and this one chance is only through the promise given to the ten lost tribes of Gentiles in every nation. A Gentile from any nation can choose to become a virgin married to a Jew, and this is only by converting to the religion of God by taking hold of the covenant of God, and there is only one way to take hold of God's covenant.
I don't make the rules, I go by what God says. The first Gentiles took hold of the covenant by believing in a Passover lamb, a Pentecost ram, a Yom Kippur goat, a Sukkot bull, and that is how they joined Israel through the promise given to the ten lost tribes of Ephraim.
Do you know the historical facts of why God ended the kingdom of Ephraim?
They themselves called the law a strange thing and they rejected Jerusalem and the 7 feasts of Messiah, and then they created their own pagan ways, the same ways that Christians keep now. Those ten tribes left Judaism, they rejected the Sabbaths and feasts of God just as Christianity did 100 years after Jesus.
Paul is explaining this, and everything in the New Testament explains this very thing, and this from the prodigal son to the book of Revelation. The Prodigal son is just showing us the historical facts of Judah and Ephraim.
In the beginning, Gentiles did exactly what Isaiah 56 shows, they chose Jesus as their Passover, they chose Jesus as their ram of Shavuot, they chose Jesus as their Yom Kippur goat, and especially as their Sukkot bull. They had kept Christmas and Easter all their lives as Pagans, and now they would only keep the ways of Messiah. The New Testament is only written to converts of Judaism who become one with Jews, and all the prophets speak of a day when Gentiles would join the Jews. In the end, any nation or person who will not keep the feast of Tabernacles will have no rain........This rain is not wet, it is a rain of spirit.
Any Pagan Christian who doesn't believe in the 7 feasts of Messiah are the same ones who claim to have a spirit from the 7 feasts of Messiah, they are still claiming to have a Passover lamb when they don't even believe in Passover.
The New Testament is pro Jewish, pro Judaism, but what people have turned it into today is something quite different. Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism for over 100 years and this is a historical fact, it is to that first church I belong to, not this modern Christianity that stole my name.
Isaiah Salvation for All Nations 1Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of manthat layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
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