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Old 08-03-2018, 01:02 AM
 
Location: Here.
15,454 posts, read 14,011,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
ONE authority promised in 3 places:John 14:17, John 14:26, John 16:13
My understanding of those versus is that Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to his disciples to help guide them. Part of that guidance will be the establishment of his Church. The Holy Spirit will not only guide them individuallly, but also collectively. Part of that guidance will be in determining which books to include in the Bible (the OP question).

What is your interpretation?

Sorry, I am not following your claims that the Church has man-made doctrines and that they are wrong. Yes, the Church is made up of humans, so technically they are man-made, but did not Jesus give men the authority to “bind”and “loosen”? (Mt 16:19) Could Jesus establish a church on Earth without the help of mankind?

Last edited by Retroit; 08-03-2018 at 01:51 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 08-03-2018, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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The development of the canon was a process greatly influenced by encroachment of Gnosticism. Essentially, Marcion created his own, so the church responded with the Muratorian, and continued to respond until it was final at Carthage. The first compilation was a guy named Tatian, a disciple of Justin Martyr, which is called the Diatessaron. The differences between the RCC and Protestant Canon are very minor, as are the Coptic and Orthodox Church's. If we didn't have any manuscripts, the entire Bible (all books noted in the LXX and the Textus Receptus), we could piece together roughly 75% of it just from the early church fathers.
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Old 08-03-2018, 01:28 AM
 
47,040 posts, read 29,894,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
My understanding of those versus is that Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to his disciples to help guide them. Part of that guidance will be the establishment of his Church. The Holy Spirit will not only guide them individuallly, but also collectively. Part of that guidance will be in determining which books to include in the Bible (the OP question).

What is your interpretation?

Sorry, I ma not following your claims that the Church has man-made doctrines and that they are wrong. Yes, the Church is made up of humans, so technically they are man-made, but did not Jesus give men the authority to “bind”and “loosen”? (Mt 16:19) Could Jesus establish a church on Earth without the help of mankind?
Jesus had no intention of establishing a church of any kind. He wanted followers who would love God and each other every day and repent when they didn't. Everything else established by men through the creation of churches is irrelevant and unnecessary. Jesus did what no other human could do. He created God's consciousness within His human consciousness thereby connecting ALL collective human consciousness to God. That is what we could NOT do because we kept "missing the mark" (Sin). When we love we are "born of God" and know God. That is the Good News (Gospel) NOT all the folderol, ritual and magical thinking in the Churches.
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Old 08-03-2018, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Jesus had no intention of establishing a church of any kind. He wanted followers who would love God and each other every day and repent when they didn't. Everything else established by men through the creation of churches is irrelevant and unnecessary. Jesus did what no other human could do. He created God's consciousness within His human consciousness thereby connecting ALL collective human consciousness to God. That is what we could NOT do because we kept "missing the mark" (Sin). When we love we are "born of God" and know God. That is the Good News (Gospel) NOT all the folderol, ritual and magical thinking in the Churches.
What is your interpretation of Mt 16:18?

How can God inculcate “God’s consciousness within His human consciousness” without some advocate here on Earth? Wouldn’t Jesus have to come to each of us individually? Wouldn’t it make much more sense to come once and leave it up to his Church to carry on the mission?

That’s what I would do.
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Old 08-03-2018, 04:13 AM
 
Location: On the brink of WWIII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
...who were all part of human organizations.
human organizations composed of MALES...
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Old 08-03-2018, 06:04 AM
 
12,910 posts, read 14,296,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
What would be the misleading intention? The books were chosen because they were judged to be most representative of the apostles understanding of Jesus. If you are not interested in the apostles understanding of Jesus, then yes you might be “mislead”.
Popularity/vote determines that something is correct, then?
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
19,315 posts, read 14,706,494 times
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Quote:
Sorry, I am not following your claims that the Church has man-made doctrines and that they are wrong.
This is the perfect thread to post the example again of Psalm 46...

Oh, that King James, what a little devil...so much for not changing a jot and a tittle while his minions wrote out the first Bible..a huge feat. Matt 5:18

Only in the KJV....count down 46 words to shake...count up from the last word 46 words to spear!

Ol' King James' homage to William Shakespeare who was 46 that year.
See for yourself...lazy?
v3 and v9....found in no other version or translation.


Surprised? Me, too.

Last edited by Miss Hepburn; 08-03-2018 at 08:13 AM.. Reason: I also make mistakes simply copying things down, imagine!
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,630,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
My understanding of those versus is that Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to his disciples to help guide them. Part of that guidance will be the establishment of his Church. The Holy Spirit will not only guide them individuallly, but also collectively. Part of that guidance will be in determining which books to include in the Bible (the OP question).

What is your interpretation?

Sorry, I am not following your claims that the Church has man-made doctrines and that they are wrong. Yes, the Church is made up of humans, so technically they are man-made, but did not Jesus give men the authority to “bind”and “loosen”? (Mt 16:19) Could Jesus establish a church on Earth without the help of mankind?
Yes, your understanding is what your church organization teaches you. Should anyone be surprised? Mystic goes a little overboard in his statement about Jesus' intentions, but that is simply because of the belief in what "church" means to the followers of the various organizations that label themselves "church:" it no more means a particular organization than it does a particular building. ἐκκλησία is "properly, people called out from the world and to God" and your citation from Matthew simply means that the body of believers will found their faith in the idea that Jesus embodied the Christ, or the Way that He taught. No political organization that may administer to that body of believers IS that body, nor the authority OF that body. Your political body claims to have been established and led by the promised Spirit, but how do they demonstrate that leading? Simple answer: they don't; they simply claim it is there, but they make no reference to the character OF that Spirit in their deliberations or conclusions. "My sheep will know my voice" is good, but how? By the nature of what that voice tells them. Giving that authority to a book is a cop out to the need to distinguish the nature of the Spirit that leads and that can be seen by the fact that arguments are ALWAYS about the grammatical meaning of the book instead of the nature of the interpretation, which should ALWAYS be about what is in the best interests of everyone involved in any situation (not always easy to be determined).
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 8,630,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
What is your interpretation of Mt 16:18?

How can God inculcate “God’s consciousness within His human consciousness” without some advocate here on Earth? Wouldn’t Jesus have to come to each of us individually? Wouldn’t it make much more sense to come once and leave it up to his Church to carry on the mission?

That’s what I would do.
Then you would be nullifying the promise of Jesus.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:19 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
25,935 posts, read 19,136,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Personally I consider myself a follower of Jesus Christ, but I have strong objections to the idea of an "official" canon of books which are considered to be "inspired".

Because if you accept the Roman church's official canon, or the Protestant canon, then you are actually putting your faith in a human organization.

Does anyone else feel this way?
With regard to the New Testament canon, the Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox church have the same 27 books in the canon. The differences between those three branches of the church are with regard to the Old Testament canon.

There are two sides to the canon. The divine side and the human side. From the divine perspective, the New Testament canon in principle was complete once the last of the New Testament books was written around the end of the first century AD. From the human side, and in practice, a long time passed before all 27 New Testament books were recognized as divinely inspired and therefore authoritative, although 21 of the 27 books were already considered canonical before the end of the 2nd century AD. The Muratorian Canon or fragment, dated to c. AD 170-200 lists those 21 books.

Muratorian Canon (Roberts-Donaldson Translation)

The area of dispute was over the other six books which eventually were recognized as being a part of the canon. The final New Testament canon was not the result of any determination by a church council but by the widespread usage of those books by the believing community. The church councils simply confirmed the widespread use of the books which had long been regarded as canonical, and endorsed them.

There were some external factors which encouraged the church to recognize which of the New Testament
books were authoritative and which were not. Those factors included the heretic Marcion who had, with regard to the New Testament Gospels, accepted only the gospel of Luke and not even everything in that Gospel. As for the Epistles, Marcion removed anything which did not agree with his understanding of what Paul should have written. Needless to say, Marcion's idea of what constituted the canon was not in keeping with the church at large.

Gnosticism was another contributing factor which made it necessary to place a limit on which books belonged in the New Testament canon and which did not. The Gnostics had produced many writings which contradicted the teachings of the apostles.

Another factor was the Diocletian persecution of the church. In AD 303, Diocletian gave an edit in which all Christian scriptures were to be surrendered and burned. Failure to surrender those scriptures could result in death. It was necessary then for believers to decide which books were worth dying for, and which books could be surrendered.

There were certain criteria used for recognizing the canonicity of a New Testament book. One such criterion was apostolicity. In order for a book to be recognized as authoritative it had to have been written by an apostle or by someone closely associated with an apostle. This of course ruled out any book written after the last of the apostles had died. The Muritorian Canon mentions this as a reason why the Shepard of Hermas could not be accepted into the canon.
The Pastor, moreover, did Hermas write very recently in our times in the city of Rome, while his brother bishop Plus sat in the chair of the Church of Rome. And therefore it also ought to be read; but it cannot be made public38 in the Church to the people, nor placed among the prophets, as their number is complete, nor among the apostles to the end of time.

Muratorian Canon (Roberts-Donaldson Translation)
While even today there are some who think that certain New Testament books don't belong in the canon and that the canon should include books which aren't a part of it, the canon as we have it is the result of generally accepted usage of the early church and I believe that the formation of the New Testament canon as we have it was guided by the Holy Spirit.

Last edited by Michael Way; 08-03-2018 at 09:37 AM..
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