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Old 08-04-2018, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
If God did not determine the canon, it is of little value. The books included in the Catholic canon, are mainly historical, which does no change any major doctrines in the Protestant canon. a little as I know about them.



I think the Catholicss do get the doctrine of purgatory from one of them.
It is only of "little value" if you want to consider it as authority from God. If you believe the promise of Jesus for a "guide" that is NOT a book, it may be an excellent tool FOR that guide.
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Old 08-04-2018, 09:12 AM
 
12,922 posts, read 14,310,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
If God did not determine the canon, it is of little value. The books included in the Catholic canon, are mainly historical, which does no change any major doctrines in the Protestant canon. a little as I know about them.



I think the Catholicss do get the doctrine of purgatory from one of them.
They are merely "historical" because the kind of people attracted to organized religion, mean and judgmental types, don't like the idea of purgatory. They don't believe in forgiving others, so why should their god. They made him in their own image.
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Old 08-04-2018, 10:18 AM
 
Location: So Cal/AZ
480 posts, read 481,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
What were thise true teachings?
The Gospel of the Kingdom is: the fact of the Fatherhood of God, coupled with the resultant truth of the Sonship-Brotherhood of men. That's what Jesus taught. Christianity as it developed from that day, is: the fact of God as the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ , in association with the experience of believer-fellowship with the risen and glorified Christ.
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Old 08-04-2018, 10:59 AM
 
175 posts, read 49,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Personally I consider myself a follower of Jesus Christ, but I have strong objections to the idea of an "official" canon of books which are considered to be "inspired".

Because if you accept the Roman church's official canon, or the Protestant canon, then you are actually putting your faith in a human organization.

Does anyone else feel this way?
The definition of Christian isn’t “follower of Jesus.” There are many wonderful people who think of themselves as followers of Jesus in the sense of admiring his life and (some of) his teachings and trying to imitate his life and (some of) his teachings. Some of these people belong to other religions and wouldn’t even claim to be Christians. I myself could claim to be a Buddhist in this sense. I think the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are profound and mesh nicely with Christianity.

Within Christianity there are creeds and denominational statements of faith that differ in some respects. They differ sufficiently that some virtually have to be wrong in significant respects. It may well be that none of them is 100% correct in terms of what the ultimate reality will prove to be.

Across the spectrum of Christianity, however, there are what I believe to be essentials:
1. An eternal, transcendent, holy, wise, just and loving God created the universe.
2. That God has revealed himself in the OT and NT and the incarnation of his son Jesus.
3. All humans are estranged from God as a result of their own disobedience and pride and can’t bridge the gap between their unholiness and God’s holiness through their own efforts.
4. God has bridged the gap through the incarnation, life, death and resurrection of his son Jesus.
5. An individual can join God’s kingdom only by repenting of his disobedience and pride, acknowledging his dependence on God and need for the grace God has made available through the incarnation, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, accepting this gift and beginning to walk in accordance with God’s moral codes and commands with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I’ve tried to make the above as broad as possible. I think you’d be hard-pressed to find anyone within Orthodoxy, Catholicism or Protestantism who seriously disagreed with these essentials. They might add something they regard as essential, but I don't think they'd disagree with any of the above.

Mere admirers of Jesus are typically unable to accept one or more of the above elements, such as (1) God has revealed himself in the OT and NT; (2) all humans are estranged from God as a result of their own disobedience and pride; and (3) an individual can join God’s kingdom only by repenting of his disobedience and pride.

Watered-down versions of Christianity typically are predicated on the fundamental goodness of humans; the ability of humans to please God through their own efforts; and God being a loving daddy in the sky who merely wants humans to enjoy themselves and is amused at their antics. This is 180 degrees removed from anything Christianity has ever been understood to be.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:03 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,446,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
It is only of "little value" if you want to consider it as authority from God.


Just the opposite. If God determined the anon, it can be relied on 100%.




Quote:
If you believe the promise of Jesus for a "guide" that is NOT a book, it may be an excellent tool FOR that guide.

All of Jesus's promises are in the Book. If they are not, how do we know He made them?
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:06 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,446,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Cynical me thinks that "guided by the spirit of democracy" is a bit loftier than what was reality, lol, but that's not relevant to this discussion.

Both the Church's canon and the Constitution have the same purpose: To provide written guidelines intended to keep order and organization in human social constructs.

Back to the OP's question: Is it necessary for a follower of Jesus Christ to have such guidelines?

The answer to those like you who believe that it was all planned by God from the get-go to have fallen out the way it did is yes.

To the OP and me and a few others who have posted who believe the scriptural canon is wholly a man-made construct, the answer is no.



Believing is not evidence. Many others believe the canons are from God, not from man.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:16 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,446,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
They are merely "historical" because the kind of people attracted to organized religion, mean and judgmental types, don't like the idea of purgatory. They don't believe in forgiving others, so why should their god. They made him in their own image.

Thanks for continuing to confirm your ignorance of conservative Christianity.



We don't accept purgatory because it is not in the Protestant canon, and we see no need for it. The Bible requires Christians to forgive even our enemies. How can you say we don't believe in forgiving others.

You say it out of bias and ignorance. We have made God in the image He gives us from His inspired and inerrant word. You make up your own image of Him from nothing you can support.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:22 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,446,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, as I stated in post #30, ''The final New Testament canon was not the result of any determination by a church council but by the widespread usage of those books by the believing community. The church councils simply confirmed the widespread use of the books which had long been regarded as canonical, and endorsed them.''

Now it's true that at the synods of Hippo (AD 393), Carthage (AD 397 and 419), Augustine cast his vote for the twenty-seven books which make up our New Testament. But even though there had been continued debate by some concerning the canon, those twenty-seven books had long been accepted by the church at large.

The Roman church had nothing to do with deciding what the canon would be. The canonization process occurred over a long period of time although most of the canon was established quite early. The debate was over a few books.

Quoting New Testament scholar Michael J. Kruger once again,
This raises an important fact about the New Testament canon that every Christian should know. The shape of our New Testament canon was not determined by a vote or by a council, but by a broad and ancient consensus. Here we can agree with Bart Ehrman, “The canon of the New Testament was ratified by widespread consensus rather than by official proclamation.”[1]

This historical reality is a good reminder that the canon is not just a man-made construct. It was not the result of a power play brokered by rich cultural elites in some smoke filled room. It was the result of many years of God’s people reading, using, and responding to these books.

https://www.michaeljkruger.com/ten-b...hurch-council/



Ehrman is one of he top liberal theologians in the world, and he NEVER supports his OPINIONS with evidence. If you consider opinions as evidence, jump on his liberal, non-Biblical band wagon and preach his non-Biblical gospel.theology.


The NT canon was determine by a council, so he is also wrong about that.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:23 PM
 
12,922 posts, read 14,310,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx View Post
Thanks for continuing to confirm your ignorance of conservative Christianity.



We don't accept purgatory because it is not in the Protestant canon, and we see no need for it. The Bible requires Christians to forgive even our enemies. How can you say we don't believe in forgiving others.

You say it out of bias and ignorance. We have made God in the image He gives us from His inspired and inerrant word. You make up your own image of Him from nothing you can support.
You don't even realize that the only reason so many people accept it as the word of God is because it confirms what they believe in their hearts already. The good and the bad.

Otherwise, what gives these "scriptures" authority for you?

What gives my own beliefs about God authority to me?

The answer is the same for both you and me.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:34 PM
 
Location: knoxville, Tn.
4,765 posts, read 1,446,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
You don't even realize that the only reason so many people accept it as the word of God is because it confirms what they believe in their hearts already. The good and the bad.



That is also backwards. No one is born a Christian. We all get our theology from God's word, not from preconceived theology. I was converted after I had decided never to go to church a gain. I had no theology in my heart. Biblically speaking, I was a blank page.


Quote:
Otherwise, what gives these "scriptures" authority for you?

Having the Holy Spirit lead us into the truth. It is having understanding we did not have as non-believers.


Quote:
What gives my own beliefs about God authority to me?

The answer is the same for both you and me.

I have no idea what give them authority for you, but you can't speak for me. What gives them authority for you?
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