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It comes down to...what does God say on heaven and hell. We are given a free gift of eternal salvation if we put our faith in Jesus and turn away from sin. But where we spend eternity is not our judgment. So, it doesn’t matter what we think is fair.
At the end of the day, you're right; it doesn't matter what we think is fair. But the very first "problem" your website mentioned implied that it would not be "just" for God to allow certain individuals to enter Heaven. For any of us to suggest that we have a better idea of what sinners "deserve" than God does really isn't fair either.
Quote:
Question for you is do you believe God is perfect and holy? If so, then we must have faith in Him. He is sovereign over everything
I absolutely do believe that He is perfect and holy, and I do have faith in Him. He loved the world enough that He was willing to let His Only Begotten Son suffer and die to atone for our sins. I believe He's going to do everything in His power (stopping at nothing except coercion) to make it possible for as many as want to be forgiven to receive that blessing. I also believe that endings in mortality really aren't endings at all, but merely interruptions in God's work and glory, which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of as many of His children as possible. Lastly, I believe the words of the late Italian judge, author and playwright, Ugo Betti, who said, “To believe in God is to know that all the rules will be fair, and that there will be wonderful surprises.”
"Problem #2: Universalism violates individual free will. C.S. Lewis said, “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ And those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done’ All that are in Hell, choose it.” If hell is for those who choose it, then by saving everyone God violates our free will."
I guess now would be a good time for me to explain what I understand the unforgivable sin -- or blasphemy against the Holy Ghost -- to be. I believe that whenever we come to learn any spiritual truth, it is through God that we do so. We may be introduced to the truth by a pastor or a book (e.g. the Bible) but in the end it is not anyone except God who is able to teach us the truth. In Matthew 16, when Jesus asked several of His Apostles who they believed Him to be, only Peter replied, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him by saying, "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." I believe that our Father in Heaven teaches us what is true through the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost. That is how Peter came to know who the Savior was.
Luke 12:10 says, "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven." When Peter, James and John witnessed Jesus Christ's Transfiguration, I believe it was made 100% clear to them, more than it ever had been made before, that He was, in fact, the literal Son of God. Peter had previously denied knowing Jesus three times within a single night, but evidently was forgiven for that transgression. But, had any of the three Apostles who witnessed His Transfiguration later denied Him, I believe that would have constituted blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Almost every person who has ever lived must walk in faith, trusting in God, believing in Jesus Christ, but not having the sure knowledge that Peter, James and John had. Even Christ's Apostle, Thomas, had to see physical proof of Christ's resurrection before He believed what the other Apostles told him. He doubted, and yet He didn't blaspheme against the Holy Ghost.
I believe the only people who can conceivably commit the "unpardonable sin" are those few who have been given a sure knowledge of the Son of God, and who are not required to merely walk in faith. If, when a person stands face to face with God, looks Him in the eyes and denies Him, I'm pretty sure that person will not be forced to go to Heaven. Every single one of us "sees through a glass darkly" and none of us are qualified to say who has received a perfect knowledge of the Son of God and who hasn't. I believe that God is a great deal more patient with our failings than we seem to realize and I don't think very many people are going to consciously "choose" Hell over Heaven. Some may take a lot longer than others to come around, and those who refuse to accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice on their behalf will be made to pay the price for their own sins before they can reap the benefits of that sacrifice, which is to be saved, but to receive a lesser reward than the faithful and repentant person. But no sin except the "unpardonable" one is deserving of eternal torment.
Perfect example of someone taking one verse to support their whole belief system. A final conclusion drawn which does not parallel Scriptures. There is nothing in the Bible that remotely suppports any of this theology.
Universalism fails to answer the question of pain and extreme suffering that happens in present time.
I never said this was the only verse I use to support my beliefs.
If we spent less time criticizing and shooting down matters/beliefs, and more time living our lives and being productive, we'd all be better off.
I'm not familiar with universalism, but it doesn't matter. Whether accurate, bogus, or any combination between, it makes no difference to my life, and shouldn't to others either. If you like it, great. If you don't, move on.
Are you going to act like the Sadducees and Pharasees - pointing fingers and complaining all of the time - or model Jesus, and promote good and healthy aspects of life? Jesus wasn't about negatives and problems; he was about uplifting life, community, and God.
Last edited by Thoreau424; 10-02-2018 at 09:01 AM..
So now that I have answered one article. I'll present an argument against Eternal Torment:
Jesus was sent for the very purpose to destroy sin:
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
So according to adherents of Eternal Torment - sinners are only relocated to a new location ("hell"). There sin remains. Therefore, under Eternal Torment there is no eradication of sin.
This doesnt make sense...IF God wanted to destroy the works of Satan, why did he cast him and the other fallen angels, DOWN TO EARTH AMONG US?!! God could have turned satan to dust anytime he liked, wipe him out of existence completely.
Thats like locking the fox inside the hen house as punishment!
Satans 'fall' was not rebelling, he is doing exactly what he was created for by God.
13 problems with Universalism. There are certainly more but this is a good start
Here’s a funny sentence in the opening:
“It [Universalism] also teaches that if someone rejects Christ in this life, they can accept Him in the next one, no matter how immoral, evil, or anti-Christ they were.”
Christianity in general teaches that a person can ”accept Christ” no matter how immoral, evil, or anti-Christ they were. Not sure, then, why that is emphasized as if it indicts Universalism as being such a terrible thing when the only difference from non-Universalist Christianity is a matter of timing. You’re all about welcoming the worst of sinners into the fold, right?
13 problems with Universalism. There are certainly more but this is a good start
Here we go, a Universalist against Universalism, yeah, that works SumTingy.......You better hope that all those religions were tutors to bring you to God because you are in one of the religions you look down upon....
God has visited people as long as there were people, and God comes to each nation in the ways of Moses where two peoples are living side by side and one of those people are persecuted and enslaved by the other people. The people who are enslaved always bend their knee and pray for a savior and God sends them a savior as he has done for thousands of years right up to this present day....
When God delivered the Philistines, what did they call God?
When God delivered the Arameans, what did they call God?
SumTingy, do you keep the ways of Babylon, the ways of Rome, and the ways of Greece and then call these things of God?
What separates the pagan religions from the religion of God other than the worship systems one keeps? If you keep the worship system of the Lord with his Sabbaths and his feasts, then people will know that you follow the God of the bible, but if you involve yourself in pagan practices like Easter and Christmas, how are you going to look down on a Universalist when you are engaged in more than one religion?
Problems #3 and #4. These are so similar that I'm going to address them as a single "problem." "Universalism soft pedals, reinterprets, and/or denies the basic teachings of Jesus [and scripture] about hell. Jesus spoke about hell more than any other figure in the Bible. Example: “…so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 12:40-42 NIV). Or, “Then he (the Son of Man) will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'” (Matt. 25:41 NIV). And many other verses. Debate usually targets words and concepts employed in Hebrew and in Greek. Nevertheless, the New Testament is adamant about a Final Judgment where “the dead were judged according to what they had done” (Rev. 20:12) and some are thrown into a “lake of fire” where “they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (vs. 10)."[/quote]Well, you have at least acknowledged that "debate usually targets words and concepts employed in Hebrew and in Greek." This makes a lot of sense, since the early converts to Christianity were Jewish and the New Testament was written primarily in Greek. You're going to get a much more accurate understanding of what Jesus and His Apostles were teaching by interpreting their words as one of His contemporaries would have done. Most of the earliest Christians would not have understood Hell to be either eternal (but rather to the end of a specific age or time period), but thanks to possibly well-meaning but uninspired men who lived hundred of years later, Christians today have come to picture a Hell that is very much along the lines of Dante's Inferno.
This is not to say that people will not be made to pay for their sins -- at least the sins they have not repented of. But Jesus Christ's Atonement made it possible for those who are willing to accept Him and the sacrifice He made for them to be able to forego punishment for sins they have repented of. I think what an awful lot of Christians today fail to consider is how many billions of people who have lived on this earth, did so with absolutely zero knowledge of Jesus Christ. First of all, there were the people who lived before Christ. They could not possibly have been "Christians" in the sense that the term is used today. Secondly, what about the billions who lived during the first few hundred years after Christ's death, but in places where Christianity had not yet spread. Surely, a young man living in 2nd century Mongolia or a young woman living in some tribal village in Africa in the 3rd century would not have ever had the opportunity to hear about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Today there are over 25 million people living in North Korea. You can't possibly assume that they know about Jesus Christ and His Atonement. Even among the people over the two millennia since Christ's death who have "heard of Him," there are untold numbers who were never really exposed to His teachings in such a way that they could actually be expected to make a decision to follow Him. Is it truly reasonable to expect a Jew who died in the Holocaust to have had any thing other than hatred for the so-called Christians who gassed them?
Life on earth has never been "fair" for billions of people, and many have not had the advantage of a level playing field. Since the Bible tells us that a person must accept Jesus Christ in order to be saved, we must either acknowledge that God is going to condemn billions for having had the misfortune of being born at the wrong time or in the wrong place, or we're going to have to concede that He's just going to end up waiving the rules in so many instances that there would have been no reason for Him to have made the rules in the first place. Or... and this is what I believe, death is not the end. When a person dies, his spirit leaves his body but remains a cognizant entity in a realm that is neither Heaven nor Hell (at least not "Hell" as most Christians understand the word). Those who have accepted Christ and have repented of their sins will find themselves in a state of happiness and joy as they await their resurrection. This place is known as Paradise; it's where Jesus told the thief on the cross next to Him that He'd see him later that day. Those who have not accepted Christ and have not repented of their sins will find themselves in a state of mental anguish, realizing that they have sinned, and believing that it's too late for them to ever be reconciled to God. This state can rightly be called "Hell," but it need not be eternal in nature. The spirits of those in Paradise can interact with the spirits of those in Hell and are continuing even today to share the good news of Jesus Christ's gospel. When a person who is in anguish over his sins accepts the gospel, he is released from the "Hell" he has been in and can instead look forward to the resurrection and a life in Heaven. Those in Hell who have repented and accepted Christ before His return to earth will rise in the first resurrection and be welcomed as resurrected beings in Heaven. Those who have not, will remain in Hell for the duration of the Millennium. Once they have been punished for their sins and have come to the knowledge that they took the hard road in refusing Christ's grace, they will also be "saved." Thus, God's plan incorporates both justice and mercy.
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