Jews and Jesus (doctrine, church, Messiah, believe)

[AdrianR]

According to those who believe that the Jews are still Gods chosen people, what Scriptures are you using to show that Jesus will come back and give the Jews a second chance. I have heard John Hagee, as well as others, say this, but they never cite any Scriptures. Thanks for the help.

[nay624]

Good question.

[ShanaBrown]

Hi I believe that Romans 11 speaks of all Israel being saved and of God shutting up all in disobedience that He may show mercy to all. God bless.

[Blueberry]

Isaiah 11:10-11

In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

There were two great dispersions of the Jews among the nations. The first occurred when the Northern Kingdom of Israel was taken into captivity to Assyria and the Southern Kingdom of Judah was taken to Babylon. The second dispersion was after Jerusalem was destroyed in AD70.

The Bible records the Jews returning and rebuilding Jerusalem after the first dispersion. It wasn't until the last 100+ years that the Jews have returned to their homeland following the dispersion of AD70, obtaining legal status as a nation in 1948. I believe God is currently nearing the end of reclaiming his remnant Jews for the second time. There have been many articles in the mainstream press over the last several years of Jews returning to the land of Israel; there's even a name for such immigration--aliyah. Some of these people groups have only recently been identified as belonging to the Jewish people.

There are many Old Testament promises to the Jews that have not been fulfilled yet, IMO. Isaiah chapter 11 is just one such promise. Historically, the land of Israel has never seen lasting peace, nor have they seen the Messiah that would lead them to victory over the nations. (Jesus came as the suffering servant. He wasn't what they were looking for then, but He will be when He returns.)

Luke 21:24 states, "They (Jews) will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Many Christians believe the "time of the Gentiles" is the dispensation of the Church Age (Pentecost-?). Various opinions abound concerning the end of the Church Age. Some Christians believe God will remove the Christians from the earth at the time of a Rapture; others feel that the salvation message will be closed to the Gentiles at some point and God will once again deal with the Jewish nation during Daniel's 70th week. Regardless of eschatological viewpoints, most Christian students of Biblical prophecy believe God will once again directly intervene in the lives of the Jewish people. The Old Testament promises to the Jews will be fulfilled either during this final "week" or during the Millennial Kingdom.

[AdrianR]

thank you. is this the only one?

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by AdrianR

thank you. is this the only one?

By no means is this the only verse/passage that indicates God is done with the Jewish people. As I stated, there are many Old Testament prophecies where God promised lasting peace, rest, prosperity, righteous judgment by a righteous ruler, etc. From a Christian perspective, the righteous ruler--from the Branch of Jessee, David God's beloved--can only mean Jesus. The Jews rejected Jesus 2000 years ago, so something will happen to bring the Jews to a knowledge of Jesus.

I don't have a comprehensive list of all the unfulfilled promises aimed at the Jews. Since I don't believe God is a liar, and since I am firmly convinced God keeps His promises, I am equally persuaded that God will fulfill his promises to the Jewish people rather than to a substitute (i.e., the Christian Church). The Gentile/Christian church was grafted onto the existing vine; it does not replace the vine. Your best bet would be to read the Scriptures for yourself, paying attention to the Old Testament prophets.

However, I'll leave you with one last passage that many Christian prophecy scholars believe clearly points to a future fulfillment of the promises. Daniel 9:25-27 talks about 70 "weeks" of Jewish history. There will be a period of 7 sevens, 62 sevens, and a final seven. Verse 26 states that the Anointed One will be cut off after the 62 sevens. Most prophecy students feel that the end of the 62 sevens ushers in the church age (the time of the Gentiles), and when the church age is ended, the final seven will take effect. That final seven is the last seven on the Jewish timeline as outlined in Daniel 9. This will be a period set aside for God to once again deal directly with the Jewish people, a period of 7 years that will usher in the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom (reign of Christ on this earth).

(As a side note, some prophecy students feel that 1/2 of that final seven occurred during Jesus' earthly ministry, so there will only be 1/2 left after the church age. One of Daniel's sevens is generally thought to equal 7 years.)

[xxGreyFalconxx]

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled


I found this one but can find others that state the Old Law or Testament was fulfilled and replaced by the New Testament. If the Old Testament has been done away with then there are no more promises to be yet fulfilled.

Besides the fact that Jews reject Jesus as the son of God.

No way around that one in the salvation plan.

[AdrianR]

Thanks for the help, but what I'm looking for is something more definitive (or different) than the restoration prophecies or the 70 weeks of years. I've heard of the Messiah coming through the East Gate in Jerusalem. That he'll show his wounds to the Jews, etc, etc. Stuff like that. thanks again.

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by xxGreyFalconxx

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled


I found this one but can find others that state the Old Law or Testament was fulfilled and replaced by the New Testament. If the Old Testament has been done away with then there are no more promises to be yet fulfilled.

Luke 24:44-48

44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise[h] from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things.

Jesus said that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. Luke 24:44 (in red) states that all things written about Jesus must be fulfilled. You're making the same mistake the Pharisees did, only in reverse. They only saw the conquering Messiah in the Old Testament Scriptures, but didn't look at the suffering servant. You're seeing the Atoning Sacrifice, but you're refusing to see the Jewish Messiah that will fulfill the promises made to the Jews. To imply that God's promises to the Jews are abolished means that God is not faithful. Heaven forbid! (See Romans 3:3 at the bottom of this post.) God IS faithful to keep His promises, even when man does not keep his covenant with God. Furthermore, a promise is just that--a promise, NOT a law. Even if you believe the law has been abolished, there's nothing to imply that God's promises have been abolished. "For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Romans 4:13)

I strongly disagree with the notion that the Old Testament was abolished and replaced with the New. The two work together, and the New Testament cannot be properly understood without understanding the foundation of the Old. Jesus Himself quoted from the Old Testament and showed it to be authoritative; so did the other New Testament writers. Paul even stated that the law exists for the purpose of instruction for believers (for without the law, we wouldn't know what sin is).

Paul commended the Bereans for searching the Scriptures. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, he states that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." Since the New Testament canon wasn't developed at the time of Paul's writings, what would constitute Scripture if not the Old Testament Scriptures? Notice, verse 17 stated one of the reasons Scripture is given is so the man of God may be complete. Christians need the Old Testament!

Food for thought:

1 Timothy 1:8
"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly."

Romans 3:31
"Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

Besides the fact that Jews reject Jesus as the son of God.

No way around that one in the salvation plan.

Not all Jews rejected Jesus when he walked the Earth, nor do all Jews reject Him today. The New Testament message is just as much for the Jews as it is for the Gentiles; likewise, the Old Testament message was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews. Peter was sent to the Jews; Paul, to the Gentiles. Paul even spoke to a group of Jews, "persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved." (Acts 28:23-24)

Indeed, the early church was composed of many Jews which is why clarification often needed to be made regarding adherence to the Law.

Romans 3:1-3

"1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.

3 What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all!"

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by AdrianR

Thanks for the help, but what I'm looking for is something more definitive (or different) than the restoration prophecies or the 70 weeks of years. I've heard of the Messiah coming through the East Gate in Jerusalem. That he'll show his wounds to the Jews, etc, etc. Stuff like that. thanks again.

I'm not sure how you can get more definitive than what I've shown.

I, too, have heard some of the claims you've heard. I can't think of a single Scripture reference that supports those claims. (That doesn't mean there aren't any. I just don't know them.)

It appears that the types of claims you're referencing are speculation, at best. I'm not at all opposed to speculation as long as the person making the guess is honest and admits it's only a good guess based upon Scriptural precepts and/or history and/or knowledge of the human condition. It's very important to handle the Word of God accurately.

May I suggest that you contact the ministries that are making the claims you're interested in? Most ministries have an online presence, so it should be pretty easy to find them and submit inquiries.