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So God holds us accountable for something we never did wrong? First off, that would be incredible unjust, and the one thing God is not is unjust. Secondly, that's saying that Jesus Christ did not atone for Adam's sin, and that His sacrifice was therefore incomplete. We are human beings, and human beings are predisposed to look out for number one, regardless of whether they hurt other people in the process. But being predisposed to doing something is not the same as being guilty of doing something. We become sinners when we knowingly and willfully break one of God's laws; we do not become sinners by merely drawing our first breath. That's nonsense.
Christ died for all sins. So it is no longer an issue of what people did or did not do.
Now - it's a matter WHO you are associated with... Adam (through physical birth) or Jesus Christ (new spiritual birth).
Scripture indicates we are born guilty, does it not? Romans 5:18
Do you honestly believe that a tiny baby bears any guilt whatsoever for something Adam did? I don't think this passage was intended to say that at all. Rather, I think it means that as Adam's descendants, we must continue to struggle constantly to be able withstand the temptations we're subjected to. Being obedient sons and daughters doesn't come naturally to any of us. We need to put off the natural man and yield to the Holy Spirit, becoming, through the grace of Jesus Christ, what we as the offspring of God have been given the potential to become. If a tiny baby truly does bear the guilt for Adam's sin, then what good was Christ's Atonement? If God truly believes a baby to be guilty, then it is God's duty to punish that baby? Do you really believe that God is going to condemn the millions of babies who have died?
Christ died for all sins. So it is no longer an issue of what people did or did not do.
Now - it's a matter WHO you are associated with... Adam (through physical birth) or Jesus Christ (new spiritual birth).
So you can "do" whatever you want as long as you are "associated with" Jesus Christ? How do you become one of His associates? What does one's new "spiritual birth" accomplish and how it is evident to others?
For those who believe that we are held accountable for Adam's sin, I'm curious as to what you see the ramifications of this as being? If you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, I'm assuming that you must believe repentance is necessary somewhere along the way. How can you repent of a sin you never actually committed? If we're all under condemnation for Adam's sin, how does repenting of our own sins make any difference? We can't repent of Adam's sin, so why wouldn't God still consider us guilty of it?
Do you honestly believe that a tiny baby bears any guilt whatsoever for something Adam did? I don't think this passage was intended to say that at all. Rather, I think it means that as Adam's descendants, we must continue to struggle constantly to be able withstand the temptations we're subjected to. Being obedient sons and daughters doesn't come naturally to any of us. We need to put off the natural man and yield to the Holy Spirit, becoming, through the grace of Jesus Christ, what we as the offspring of God have been given the potential to become. If a tiny baby truly does bear the guilt for Adam's sin, then what good was Christ's Atonement? If God truly believes a baby to be guilty, then it is God's duty to punish that baby? Do you really believe that God is going to condemn the millions of babies who have died?
Yes, I do, since no one can resist the urge to sin. I know we’ve argued this before. Personally, I believe Christ’s blood covers those who have not had the opportunity to choose.
So you can "do" whatever you want as long as you are "associated with" Jesus Christ? How do you become one of His associates? What does one's new "spiritual birth" accomplish and how it is evident to others?
We are not "associates". We are children of God by faith in Christ.
Can we do whatever we want and remain with Christ? Technically yes... but it's not a good idea. Christ doesn't want that. We shouldn't want that. We will be judged for our actions, but remain as children of God.
It's similar to families on the earth. One is born into a family, and remains physically connected as blood relatives regardless of what they do. Change relationship by blood (earthly relationship) to relationship by spirit (spiritual relationship with God and Christ)... that's kind of the idea.
You become a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ and His gospel.
Spiritual birth links us to Christ and His resurrected life, so that we will be with Him in the presence of God upon leaving the earth.
Yes, I do, since no one can resist the urge to sin.
You're right. We can't. But what does this have to do with our being held accountable for Adam's sin?
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I know we’ve argued this before.
Yeah, I know we have, and I'm still trying to get my head around your reasoning.
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Personally, I believe Christ’s blood covers those who have not had the opportunity to choose.
That's an interesting comment. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but your use of the phrase, "personally, I believe..." implies to me that you don't find this explicitly taught in the Bible, but that you recognize that it would not be just of God to condemn someone who never had the opportunity to choose. Am I right about that?
For those who believe that we are held accountable for Adam's sin, I'm curious as to what you see the ramifications of this as being? If you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, I'm assuming that you must believe repentance is necessary somewhere along the way. How can you repent of a sin you never actually committed? If we're all under condemnation for Adam's sin, how does repenting of our own sins make any difference? We can't repent of Adam's sin, so why wouldn't God still consider us guilty of it?
The problem I see is thinking that Jesus came to save individuals from being human
The scriptures are not written to every human being, they are written to “a people” who have been dispersed throughout the nations
The letter to the Roman church is not to individual people
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Originally Posted by jimmiej
Scripture indicates we are born guilty, does it not? Romans 5:18
The book of Romans is not addressed to all human beings that have ever lived, it is addressed to the Roman “church” which is free from Jewish law
Rom 1:1 Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, separated to the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 which He promised before through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
Rom 1:3 concerning His Son who came of the seed of David according to flesh,
Rom 1:4 who was marked out the Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;
Rom 1:5 by whom we received grace and apostleship to obedience of faith among all the nations, for His name's sake,
Rom 1:6 among whom are you also, called-out ones of Jesus Christ;
Rom 1:7 to all those who are in Rome, beloved of God, called-out saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 7:1 Or are you ignorant, brothers, (for I speak to those knowing Law), that the Law lords it over the man for as long a time as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For the married woman was bound by Law to the living husband; but if the husband dies, she is set free from the Law of the husband.
Rom 7:3 So then, if the husband is living, she will be called an adulteress if she becomes another man's. But if the husband dies, she is free from the Law, so as for her not to be an adulteress by becoming another man's.
Rom 7:4 So that, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, to the One raised from the dead, so that we may bear fruit to God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin were working in our members through the Law for the bearing of fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so as for us to serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.
These things are not talking about individual husbands and wives and original sin, they are talking about the nation that was scattered and is being gathered
You're right. We can't. But what does this have to do with our being held accountable for Adam's sin?
Yeah, I know we have, and I'm still trying to get my head around your reasoning.
That's an interesting comment. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but your use of the phrase, "personally, I believe..." implies to me that you don't find this explicitly taught in the Bible, but that you recognize that it would not be just of God to condemn someone who never had the opportunity to choose. Am I right about that?
It means we are born stained.
Although it is possible that God applies Christ’s payment for sin to those who cannot believe, the Bible does not specifically say that He does this. Therefore, this is a subject about which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. God’s applying Christ’s death to those who cannot believe would seem consistent with His love and mercy.
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