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Jesus spoke about people going into hell in terms much more severe than wishing for a glass of ice water .
He spoke of it as the destruction of their very " soul " :
" And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul , but rather fear him which is
able to destroy soul and body in hell . " ( Matthew 10:28 )
Until we here on earth come to belief in Jesus we are " lost souls " but we do have them .
If what you say is true concerning those in hell going to heaven then according to Jesus's Word they are given brand new souls to replace the souls they were born with which Jesus has said will be " destroyed " in hell .
The replacement of a destroyed soul in conjunction with extraction from hell would be a greater salvation than has ever happened on the earth .
Why would Jesus specifically speak of the very " destruction " of the soul in hell , but never mention being given a new soul in hell ?
The Jesus you know may practice this type of shell game salvation telling only of the "destroyed " soul , offering no assurance to the loved ones left behind concerning replacement of the destroyed soul .
The Jesus of Blessed assurance that I know would never be that cruel .
I would not want to meet the Jesus you know in a dark alley .
You make the common mistake of building doctrines based on the meaning of English words and the current culturally associated imagery instead of the meanings that were in the mind of the ancient speaker in their original language. The passage you used is used by many to support annihilationism. Destroy means gone and utterly nonexistent right? Well it does to some, but to others maybe it means frying in ones own fat for eternity. Because it has to support their theological bias. So people tend to bend words to the meaning they want them to have. Translators have been known to do that too. But then again to Jesus and His listeners it might have meant something quite different.
Here is I Peter 1:7 in Young's literal translation
“that the proof of your faith -- much more precious than of gold that is perishing, and through fire being approved -- may be found to praise, and honour, and glory, in the revelation of Jesus Christ,”
First perishing is the same greek word as destroyed in your quoted passage. But look at the order of events.
The gold is perishing, then through fire being approved. Hmmmm
How can the gold be destroyed and then through fire become approved? Nothing can be approved AFTER it has been destroyed can it? Unless the destruction is something different than our modern image provides. This is the imagery of the ancient people and the words have different imagery to them than to us. Both the rendering “destroy” in your passage and the word “perishing” in the one I quote are apollymi in the Greek.
For that word to be used by Peter to denote a step in the process of purifying gold indicates that the image we have of the word as utterly final and hopeless is misplaced.
Instead of souls being utterly annihilated and having to be replaced, Would it not make sense that God would use the fire of hell to do in the sinner in the after life what he used the fire of trials to do to the saint in this life? The soul is purified by fire as it were a precious metal the Lord desires to separate from the corruption and impurity that has polluted it so that it may be made fitting for his royal abode.
While relying on isolated verses such as this, you're forced to ignore huge swaths of the NT.
Dear Nerf: As a matter of fact, this "isolated verse" is smack in the middle of the glorious words in the Romans. Perhaps you need a small refresher course, in particular, Romans 5-11.
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."
Therefore, as by the offense of one, etc. - The Greek text of this verse is as follows: - Αρα ουν, ὡς δι 'ἑνος παραπτωματος, εις παντας ανθρωπους εις κατακριμα· αυτω και ἑνος δικαιωματος, εις παντας ανθρωπους, εις δικαιωσιν ζωης ; which literally rendered stands thus:
- Therefore, as by one offense unto all men, unto condemnation; so likewise, by one righteousness unto all men, to justification of life. This is evidently an elliptical sentence, and its full meaning can be gathered only from the context. He who had no particular purpose to serve would, most probably, understand it, from the context, thus: - Therefore, as by one sin all men came into condemnation; so also by one righteous act all men came unto justification of life: which is more fully expressed in the following verse. Now, leaving all particular creeds out of the question, and taking in the scope of the apostle's reasoning in this and the preceding chapter, is not the sense evidently this? -
Through the disobedience of Adam, a sentence of condemnation to death, without any promise or hope of a resurrection, passed upon all men; so, by the obedience of Christ unto death, this one grand righteous act, the sentence was so far reversed, that death shall not finally triumph, for all shall again be restored to life.
Justice must have its due; and therefore all must die. The mercy of God, in Christ Jesus, shall have its due also; and therefore all shall be put into a salvageable state here, and the whole human race shall be raised to life at the great day. Thus both justice and mercy are magnified; and neither is exalted at the expense of the other. -Adam Clarke-
You make the common mistake of building doctrines based on the meaning of English words and the current culturally associated imagery instead of the meanings that were in the mind of the ancient speaker in their original language. The passage you used is used by many to support annihilationism. Destroy means gone and utterly nonexistent right? Well it does to some, but to others maybe it means frying in ones own fat for eternity. Because it has to support their theological bias. So people tend to bend words to the meaning they want them to have. Translators have been known to do that too. But then again to Jesus and His listeners it might have meant something quite different.
Here is I Peter 1:7 in Young's literal translation
“that the proof of your faith -- much more precious than of gold that is perishing, and through fire being approved -- may be found to praise, and honour, and glory, in the revelation of Jesus Christ,”
First perishing is the same greek word as destroyed in your quoted passage. But look at the order of events.
The gold is perishing, then through fire being approved. Hmmmm
How can the gold be destroyed and then through fire become approved? Nothing can be approved AFTER it has been destroyed can it? Unless the destruction is something different than our modern image provides. This is the imagery of the ancient people and the words have different imagery to them than to us. Both the rendering “destroy” in your passage and the word “perishing” in the one I quote are apollymi in the Greek.
For that word to be used by Peter to denote a step in the process of purifying gold indicates that the image we have of the word as utterly final and hopeless is misplaced.
Instead of souls being utterly annihilated and having to be replaced, Would it not make sense that God would use the fire of hell to do in the sinner in the after life what he used the fire of trials to do to the saint in this life? The soul is purified by fire as it were a precious metal the Lord desires to separate from the corruption and impurity that has polluted it so that it may be made fitting for his royal abode.
Is that someone you’d like to meet?
PastorMark: Thank you for coming over here to C.D.
The purpose of our Father has, and always will be, change & transformation.
A holocaust survivor embraces the Nazi who 70 years ago conducted cruel and demented experiments on her as a child. 1
The wife of a missionary returns to share the gospel with the primitive jungle tribe that brutally murdered her husband who once shared Christ with them.2
A pastor whose wife and infant daughter were killed by a drunk driver asks for a diminished sentence for the offender and has built a life long friendship with him. 3
A Rwandan woman’s entire family was wiped out during one of the worst genocides in history. She forgave the men who committed the atrocity and wrote a book that has spurred national healing and reconciliation in the aftermath.3
What do all these scenarios have in common? They are some shining examples of radical forgiveness under circumstances very few of us could manage to bear gracefully let alone survive with our faith intact.
Nazis, warlords, drunk drivers and the like are the poster children of why justice is required of sinners. Their deeds are such that for such things to go unpunished would seem an offense against the very notion of justice itself.
Yet where did these heroic people get the the inner power to extend such radical forgiveness? Who else but God could provide such grace? To befriend the man whose irresponsible drunkenness cost the lives of the two most precious people in your life is almost unthinkable. Yet we who are informed in the heart and mission of the Messiah cannot help but admire it. We know intrinsically this must be the power of Gods love at work in a persons heart.
However have we stopped to consider that this woman who was killed had a mother and father. How do they feel about this forgiveness? Does it represent an affront to their sense of justice for their daughter? Is the daughters life dishonored by her husbands forgiveness of this man?
What about Elizabeth Elliott (in case you had not figured it out) who went back to share Christ with the very tribes that murdered her husband. Where is the justice for that mans mother and father? It’s one thing for Mrs. Elliott to forgive them but what does that say about the damage done to them having lost their son? One could argue that this radical forgiveness dishonored their deserved justice.
And yet still there is the Rwandan genocide. So many countless people died and yet the nation is beginning to heal due to the work of a woman who forgave the men that slaughtered her family.
It is in these astonishing and transformative accounts we begin to see the unfolding of a great human mystery being unlocked by a divine hand. Perhaps the grand secret to saving humanity from its own depravity is not the destruction of evil doers, but the destruction of the the evil that is within in them through love.
As it is written, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Yet the most ardent disciples of Christianity who would celebrate these accounts themselves demand that harsh and interminable justice be done in the afterlife. Sinners must burn in hell forever because anything less is an affront to justice and the ones who suffered because of their depravity. This is a primary argument for why endless punishment is the only possibility for sinners. Yet when we read those stories we applaud these heroes of grace and we pray that somehow our own hearts could become half as strong in grace as theirs. The very ones who set aside justice to forgive the unforgivable. The very ones who despite the damage done to those who also loved those who were tortured and murdered chose the path of forgiveness instead of justice when the entire world would have understood and appreciated if they had asked for death to the offenders.
But God was accomplishing something truly rare and precious in their hearts. His will was being done on earth as it is in heaven. Nowhere had his kingdom come more powerfully and present than in the hearts of these who laid down all rights to justice and chose to say “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”
So now we must turn the tables on the demand for eternal punishment for sinners. Do we think that God would so dishonor those whose lives had so shined with the grace of Christ in radical forgiveness by sending their offenders to hell forever anyway? How could those forgiven on earth not be forgiven in heaven without dishonoring the love of those on earth who sacrificed so much to forgive them?
Furthermore, how can God not forgive those who were forgiven on earth when it was His own grace and spirit inspiring the forgiveness? Was it not Christ in them performing this forgiveness? Why then would Christ express forgiveness through our hearts on earth only to hold unforgiveness towards the same people in the afterlife?
It is at that point the familiar argument arises, God must judge people forever or else it would be an affront to justice. Well it would seem God has been affronting justice a lot through history by allowing sinners to be transformed by forgiveness.
Forgiveness destroys hate and evil. Was it not Jesus who said that the one who is forgiven much loves much?
So what is Gods goal? To judge the sin and destroy the sinner, or to forgive the sin and change the sinner?
It is impossible to look at the stories of radical forgiveness and conclude it is the working of a God who will send sinners to hell forever. Love does not require justice like we do.
Love has every reason to be more hurt and offended than we are yet love chooses to radically forgive. In this life or the next life there is no reason why God would not continue to forgive sinners and liberate them from the evil within.
Man made artificial deadlines on grace only serve to prop up human ideas and set themselves against the beautiful history of radical forgiveness to likes of Saul of Tarsus, John Newton, Nikki Cruz, and others.
These questions defy the simplistic and defiant assertions that Gods love could be so arbitrary and contradictory to mysteriously close off the sinner when brain waves and heart beats cease.
This leaves us with one great question. Where does Gods love for the sinner go when they die? Traditional Western theology teaches us it was once there but upon death it somehow evaporates.
But the testimonies of such radical, sacrificial, Christlike, cross bearing forgiveness seem to gently insist something else is true besides the contradiction we have held to.
The sinner may die, but mercy will not. For mercy already died for the sinner and mercy will never die again.
As it is written, “Give thanks to the Lord for He is good, His mercies endureth forever.”
How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…
“Life”…Isa. 4:5
“Purification”…Matt. 3:3
“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27
“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10
And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.
And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.
Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.
Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being
And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.
Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.
When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)
Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).
The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.
Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome
It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.
So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).
Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?
Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)
And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."
Fire Is The Portion Of All
These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.
The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”
When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–
"Behold, I make all things new." -Christ Triumphant-
Gods ways are higher than our ways. Do not pass GO do not collect $200............
Agreed. And what does higher mean? Beyond understanding or defying all logic and reason, or better than we could ever imagine? I opt for the second.
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:9-12
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
I Tim 2:3-6
So who would like to explain how God is unable to bring to pass what he desires?
As far as I can tell those who are strong on condemnation read what they want thinking it is necessary to scare people into a religion that should be about something joyful, but which has been transformed by the controllers who want to dictate people's actions rather than experience the freedom we have in Christ based on concern for others rather than a set of rules they want to impose. Common with those stuck in a religion that lost the Spirit Jesustaught
Agreed. And what does higher mean? Beyond understanding or defying all logic and reason, or better than we could ever imagine? I opt for the second.
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:9-12
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
I Tim 2:3-6
So who would like to explain how God is unable to bring to pass what he desires?
Dear PastorMark: Actually the word in the koine is far stronger than desires or wants! He wills all mankind to be saved. Nerf (as a good Calvinist) may appreciate the language of thelo.
God wills all mankind to be saved.....
Question=
Whose will prevails, broken creatures of despair, or the God of Glory?
Agreed. And what does higher mean? Beyond understanding or defying all logic and reason, or better than we could ever imagine? I opt for the second.
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:9-12
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
I Tim 2:3-6
So who would like to explain how God is unable to bring to pass what he desires?
God limits the use of His Sovereignty so that in human history the Sovereignty of God and the volition of man co-exist. God desires that no one sin, but sin is an everyday occurrence. The will of God can be resisted and Jesus Himself said to the unbelieving Jews that they refused to come to Him so that they may have life.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40] and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Even in the still future Millennial kingdom and the restoration (restitution) of all things spoken of by God through His prophets (Acts 3:21) (the expression 'all things' is limited to the things spoken of by the prophets and so does not mean 'all things' beyond what was spoken), there will be people who will not come to Jesus so that they may be saved. And at the end of the Millennial kingdom, when Satan is temporarily released from his prison, he will incite an overt rebellion against God that will be crushed by God and the number of people who are like the sand of the seashore who are a part of the rebellion will be devoured, and the devil who deceived them will be thrown into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet, and they will be tormented forever, as will all who have refused to come to Jesus for eternal life. (Revelation 20:15; Matthew 25:41, 46).
It is made very clear that in the age to come, when all have been resurrected, many will be resurrected to eternal life, but many will be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29).
Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29] and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
The two groups are mutually exclusive, diametrically opposed to each other.
Fr. Lawrence Farley, commenting on Daniel 12:2 in his article which argues against Universalism states;
''Admittedly, the Old Testament texts do not deal much with the life of the age to come. But there is one text that does: Daniel 12:2, which declares that “many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt”. The word rendered here “everlasting” is the Hebrew olam, which given its context of the age to come after the resurrection of the dead, means precisely “eternal” or everlasting in the traditional sense.''
The status of those after resurrection is permanent. Those who have been resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt, those who have been resurrected to judgment will not later join those who have been resurrected to eternal life.
While God desires that all men be saved, He demands a volitional response from man regarding the gospel message about Jesus and about salvation. And there is nothing, absolutely nothing in the Bible which suggests that anyone after they have died will be able to receive Jesus as Savior and thereby be saved. And that includes Philippians 2:10-11. Those who refuse to acknowledge that Jesus is Lord now, while alive on this earth, will be forced to admit that Jesus is the rightful Lord over all. They will do so as defeated enemies of Jesus. The verse says nothing about being able to accept Jesus as Savior after leaving this life.
Universalism is a false teaching which offers a false hope to those who are under judgment and who will remain separated from God in a spiritual sense, forever, unless they come to Jesus for eternal life while they have the opportunity to do so in this life.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
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