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People have argued about the meaning of scripture since it was written, and everyone generally thinks that they have the only correct interpretation. Most people use the scripture in an attempt to prove themselves correct (and everyone else wrong) instead of an honest and sincere quest for truth.
But, during the OT times, they didn't have the written OT scriptures, and during the NT times they didn't have the written NT scriptures. They were doing the best they could to understand God as He spoke to their hearts. God always has and always will honor those who can get rid of their own pride and desire to be "right" and sincerely seek Him. If you are sincerely seeking God, He will get you to the truth, one way or another. The Bible is full of examples of this.
The "word" of God (logos) is what was revealed by Jesus and what dwells in your heart, not what is written in ink on paper.
On the road to Emmaus, Jesus revealed Himself through scripture starting with Moses and going forward, but the men didn't recognize Him until He broke bread with them. After they had knowlege of Him, then they understood scripture.
In the same way, when Jesus violated the OT scripture by healing a man on the Sabbath, and was criticized for it, He told them this: You have never heard God or seen his form, but you search the scriptures thinking that in them you have life. The scriptures point to me, but you will not come to me to receive that life.
The most important thing is to know Jesus, the true word of God. Churches are full of people who know the writings like the back of their hand, but have never heard His voice or seen His form.
If what Jesus spoke is the word of God, and if what the apostles taught orally is the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13), it remains just as much the word of God when set down in writing (2 Thesalonians 2:15).
When Jesus dictated to John exactly what he was to write to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, did it stop being the word of God because it was written in ink on papyrus? Of course not.
In human history the word of God has been communicated by God Himself, by angels, by prophets, through dreams and visions, by Jesus who Himself is both God and man, and by the apostles who taught both orally and through letters, some of which make up our New Testament.
Yes, and do you know if that's a thing? I mean, do the people who believe the Bible as it exists in its current form is literally words from God also believe that God decided on the canon using the men who chose which books would be included?
It would seem that would have to be the case to make the inerrancy story work.
That's the story, of course they were "guided by the Holy Spirit," but no indication of how we could know that other than their assertions and ignoring the clear contradictions and different understandings of the meaning of so many passages.
If what Jesus spoke is the word of God, and if what the apostles taught orally is the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13), it remains just as much the word of God when set down in writing (2 Thesalonians 2:15).
When Jesus dictated to John exactly what he was to write to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, did it stop being the word of God because it was written in ink on papyrus? Of course not.
In human history the word of God has been communicated by God Himself, by angels, by prophets, through dreams and visions, by Jesus who Himself is both God and man, and by the apostles who taught both orally and through letters, some of which make up our New Testament.
That these people SPOKE The "word" does not mean it was always written accurately and never redacted to suit different agendas.
If what Jesus spoke is the word of God, and if what the apostles taught orally is the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13), it remains just as much the word of God when set down in writing (2 Thesalonians 2:15).
When Jesus dictated to John exactly what he was to write to the seven churches of Asia in Revelation chapters 2 and 3, did it stop being the word of God because it was written in ink on papyrus? Of course not.
In human history the word of God has been communicated by God Himself, by angels, by prophets, through dreams and visions, by Jesus who Himself is both God and man, and by the apostles who taught both orally and through letters, some of which make up our New Testament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
That these people SPOKE The "word" does not mean it was always written accurately and never redacted to suit different agendas.
What the apostles themselves wrote, or perhaps more often used a amanuensis (secretary) to write their letters, which they then would have checked for accuracy, was accurate. As for the manuscript copies of those original autographs of the apostles, most New Testament textual critics are convinced that what we have today is 99 percent or better, accurate compared with the original autographs, which while the originals no longer exist, it is because of the vast number of copies which we do have, that by comparing all those copies, we can get back to the original text to within one percent accuracy.
Yes, there are corruptions, variants in all of the manuscript copies. But those variants for the most part have been identified and can be weeded out, leaving the original text, again, for the most part. There are some parts of the text which we may never be sure about, but none of those concern any vital teachings of the Christian faith.
What the apostles themselves wrote, or perhaps more often used a amanuensis (secretary) to write their letters, which they then would have checked for accuracy, was accurate. As for the manuscript copies of those original autographs of the apostles, most New Testament textual critics are convinced that what we have today is 99 percent or better, accurate compared with the original autographs, which while the originals no longer exist, it is because of the vast number of copies which we do have, that by comparing all those copies, we can get back to the original text to within one percent accuracy.
Yes, there are corruptions, variants in all of the manuscript copies. But those variants for the most part have been identified and can be weeded out, leaving the original text, again, for the most part. There are some parts of the text which we may never be sure about, but none of those concern any vital teachings of the Christian faith.
Fishermen with secretaries. Yeah, that's the ticket!
At the end of Romans 16, Tertius, the secretary that Paul used to write Romans added his own greeting to the Roman church.
Romans 16:22 I, Tertius, who write this letter, greet you in the Lord.
Paul wasn't a fisherman by the way.
He never knew Jesus either.
And the other apostles were fishermen. It's very likely that few of them could even read beyond a 1st grade level, let alone edit what their supposed "secretaries" wrote.
The lengths some fundies go to rationalize the irrational is indeed desperate and sad.
Calvinism is a rehash of Augustinianism...Just as its opponent, Arminianism, is a rehash of Pelagisnism...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Too many "isms", I say!
MQ, Yes!
Reminds me of a story a preacher friend shared once. Grew up in South Alabama. Felt the call to the ministry as a teen. Went to the big SBC school in the state (Samford, my alma mater btw... I realize that that might seem backwater to some but for purposes of this story, it was the big leagues for a rural teen from South AL) to major in religion and get his pastoral certifications.
On his first day there, an upper classman cornered him and asked him if he was pre-millennial or post-millennial as far as the rapture. He was clueless. Didn't know what the guy was going on about. All he could mutter was "ahhhh...." while he tried to decipher the question.
The upper classman declared "Amillennial! I could tell you were a liberal!" and walked off.
All these isms make it easier for someone to compartmentalize you and not hear you.
And the other apostles were fishermen. It's very likely that few of them could even read beyond a 1st grade level, let alone edit what their supposed "secretaries" wrote.
The lengths some fundies go to rationalize the irrational is indeed desperate and sad.
Matthew was a tax collector and could both read and write. Luke, while not an apostle, could read and write quite well.
Peter seems to have used Silvanus to help him write 2 Peter.
2 Peter 5:12 Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God, Stand firm in it!
Furthermore, Jewish boys in Jesus' day did acquire some education pertaining to the Torah, and so could read. Jesus himself could read since he read from the Torah.
Having formerly been fishermen doesn't mean that the other New Testament writers couldn't have availed themselves of a secretary for hire. Nor did I say that all of the New Testament documents were written with the use of a secretary. Some were however.
Paul saw the risen Jesus, and on more than one occasion. And actually, since Paul, being a Pharisee, would have made it a point to be in Jerusalem during Passover, he may very well have heard Jesus speak since Jesus also made it a point to be in Jerusalem during Passover. We can't know for sure that Paul saw and heard Jesus speak during his public ministry at least once, but the possibility can't be ruled out either.
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