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God sent His Son into the world, 'that the world might be saved through Him.' His will is that people would give up their own sin and rebellion and follow Christ. But, people with free will had other ideas and instead, crucified Christ!
News flash - Christians continue to "crucify him" daily/weekly for their sins, along with new converts.
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-- Christ demonstrated His love by freely giving His life over to them, but, neither He nor God hung Him on that cross. Yes, God has/d the power to reach down from heaven and 'smite' all who had any part in the crucifixion - or who continue in sin today, but, that has never been God's perfectly designed plan.
Instead, Jesus paid a debt He didn't owe, for people who owed a (sin) debt they could not pay. (We cannot satisfy the 'death wages' of our own sin-filled life, with our own sin-filled life; but, Christ exchanged His perfect life, for ours)
While the penal substitution theory shares themes present in many of the other theories of the atonement, it is distinctively a Protestant understanding that differs from both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. A simplistic way of putting it is that the satisfaction theory focused on satisfying God's honor, then it went to that of satisfying his justice, and then to the Protestant’s penal substitution theory which focused on satisfying God's wrath. But it has NEVER been about satisfying the wrath of an angry creator, that came from the mindset of men as most aspects of religion.
From its earliest days, our primitive species engaged in attempts to appease the gods who they believed were responsible for absolutely everything that ever happened to them. This primitive and barbaric appeasement meme manifested in various "sacrifices" of scapegoat animals, enemies, virgins, babies, etc. This very primitive and ancient meme was very powerful among our fearful and ignorant ancestors. It obviously infiltrated even the Gospel of love and reconciliation revealed and demonstrated unambiguously by Jesus. I am unable to explain its persistence even to this day other than to point to the continuing fear of God and the very human desire for revenge. Jesus epitomized agape love and smote no one so I cannot account for the acceptance of such ancient barbarity in His name.
I know.
People just believe this ancient idea that makes no sense..
Of course people try to make sense of it...it's kinda funny to watch....trying to make sense that God needed this horrible thing to happen so we would all be forgiven ....
in WHAT UNIVERSE would that make sense!?
I know.
People just believe this ancient idea that makes no sense..
Of course people try to make sense of it...it's kinda funny to watch....trying to make sense that God needed this horrible thing to happen so we would all be forgiven ....
in WHAT UNIVERSE would that make sense!?
The age of an idea has nothing to do with its validity. The writers claimed to be driven by the Spirit. More than one writer wrote of substitutionary atonement.
The age of an idea has nothing to do with its validity. The writers claimed to be driven by the Spirit. More than one writer wrote of substitutionary atonement.
Don't try to downplay it with euphemisms, Jimmie. "Substitutionary atonement" is a euphemism for "horrendous scourging and crucifixion" to appease a vengeful God who is too Holy to forgive His own creations' imperfections without a scapegoat blood sacrifice. And you claim to love such a God? Astounding!
The age of an idea has nothing to do with its validity. The writers claimed to be driven by the Spirit. More than one writer wrote of substitutionary atonement.
How can killing the innocent and letting the guilty go free be considered a just payment?
How does punishing the innocent in place of the guilty display perfect justice?
How does retributive violence demonstrate perfect holiness?
Post # 10 does Not explain that according to Revelation 3:14 that pre-human Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
While Revelation 3:14 can be translated as 'the beginning of the creation of God', as many English translations have it, and it is okay to translate it that way as long as it's understood that it doesn't have to mean that the pre-human Jesus was the first thing created by God. The Greek word translated as 'beginning' is ἀρχὴ - archē and has within its semantic range the meaning of 'beginning,' 'origin,' and 'ruler.'
In Luke 20:20 ἀρχὴ is used for the rule of the governor,
Luke 20:20 So they watched Him, and sent spies who pretended to be righteous, in order that they might catch Him in some statement, so that they could deliver Him to the rule (ἀρχῇ) and the authority of the governor.
It would be better to translate Revelation 3:14 as
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the ruler (ἀρχῇ) of the creation of God, says this:
Or as
Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the origin (ἀρχῇ) of the creation of God, says this:
The latter way of translating it is how the New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament, which is the interlinear translation of the Greek New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition translates it.
Jesus is the origin of creation because He is the Creator. He brought all things into existence as stated in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:10-12.
Hebrews 1:10-12 is particularly revealing because the writer of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 102:25-27 which is a prayer addressed to Yahweh with reference to Him creating the heavens and the earth, but he applies it to Jesus in Hebrews 1:10-12. In other words, the writer of Hebrews is saying that Jesus is Yahweh (the Son, not the Father) and that it was the Son who created it all. In fact, the writer of Hebrews has God the Father speaking to the Son and saying that it was the Son who in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and that the heavens are the work of His (the Son's) hands.
The pre-incarnate Jesus is both the origin and the ruler of creation. He is not the first created thing in creation. He is eternal and infinite God.
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Post # 10 does Not address that God had 'No beginning' according to Psalm 90:2. Pre-human Jesus had a beginning.
No it doesn't. Psalm 90:2 says that God is from everlasting to everlasting. That doesn't deny the eternality of the pre-incarnate Jesus. Again, the writer of Hebrews applies to Jesus what in Psalm 102 was said of Yahweh. See the section above.
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Post # 10 does Not tell us that only God was ' before ' the beginning, and pre-human Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before' the beginning.
Since Jesus is God, and since He (the pre-incarnate Jesus) brought all things into existence as shown in the verses already posted, he logically was before the beginning, as he said Himself in his high priestly prayer in John 17:5.
John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
'Before the world was' is a reference to eternity past, before creation, before the beginning of creation which Jesus originated.
The age of an idea has nothing to do with its validity. The writers claimed to be driven by the Spirit. More than one writer wrote of substitutionary atonement.
OK,That was a good statement...esp since Kepler, 1500s, came up with an equation that NASA uses today! However, no matter how well meaning early man was, say 2000 BC...his mind still interpreted
comets as chariots in the sky...and blamed God for all disasters.
How can you trust a god that tortures and kills his own son? And let's not forget what he did to the Egyptian firstborns! Or to Job.
How is it that you read the Book of Job and think God did those things?
Read the account again preferably using a modern translation
In the case of Job God prohibited satan from killing him
Satan failed to turn Job against God even with all the trials satan threw at Job.
But Satan wasn't done yet with trying to prove he could turn any human against God.How about up to and including a painful and humiliating death? Satan got his answer, Jesus has control of God's Kingdom and is going to abyss satan. Payback time, and we are redeemed in the process.
I'm not sure those answers satisfactorily address my questions. They don't explain Jesus' forgiveness without blood sacrifice while he walked the earth (I explain it with "grace.)
I'm just addressing this because I had at one time wondered that too.Why could Jesus tell a sinner your sins are forgiving without a blood sacrifice?
Some background
The Jews didn't know of any other way that sins could be forgiven-Hebrews 9:22
So Jews would be perplexed by someone saying your sins are forgiven without a blood sacrifice.
But I believe Paul answers this question in Romans 3:25,26 which I'll quote here:
"God presented him as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness, because God in his forbearance was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past. This was to demonstrate his own righteousness in this present season, so that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man who has faith in Jesus."
To me Paul is basically saying that God is still holding to his standards of justice and not bending his own rules in that Jesus could forgive sins. Why? because as Scripture says what God sets out to accomplish, sooner or later, is as good as done. He views Jesus upcoming sacrifice as good as done. So in God's viewpoint Jesus has already made the blood sacrifice.
How can killing the innocent and letting the guilty go free be considered a just payment?
How does punishing the innocent in place of the guilty display perfect justice?
How does retributive violence demonstrate perfect holiness?
It cannot and it denigrates the very concept of Holiness. How such a heinous and barbaric concept of blood sacrifice can be accepted by so many is utterly astounding.
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