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Chris is certainly not as shrill as Jeff, BF, Finn and the guy that shouts in the choir loft. I really see him as someone more from my background as opposed to hardline Fundamentalism.
Chris, the reason I have moderated on this subject is the experience with my college buddy who went through everything any conservative church would have him do. Secular counseling, Christian counseling, anti depressnts, Healing services, Deliverance sessions, speaking in tounges, Ex-Gay boot camp in kentucky, the list is absolutely mind blowing. He loves the Lord with all he is but is gay to the core and could not shake it after 20 years of doing everything Christians told him to do to be free of being gay.
None of it took.
Finally he came to peace with himself and with God that he was gay. Who am I to tell him to go back to what didn't work. If you have an answer that is biblical and sound, I am sure he would try it again. He wanted desperately with every fiber of his being to be straight, marry a woman, raise a family like what he grew up with and saw all around him.
Yet it wasn't to be found.
How can we as the church reject this guy anymore? I can't. If I am defrocked and excommunicated, so be it. But there are those that truly love the Lord and do not demean scripture that feel the same. I have just got to find them I guess.
He may not be as bad as Jeff, Finn, and BF, but he is just as misguided.
It's beyond me that anyone cannot see that the discrimination and marginalization of gays in this society (and such discrimination completely has its roots in fundamentalism) is the direct cause that they would be more promiscuous. Many cannot be open and in a loving relationship because of fundamentalist attitudes.
The gay agenda mandates you blame Christians for all ills, but it ignores facts, like the LGBT rights in non-Christian countries, which are non-existent. Just look at Asia, Africa, or mid-east.
Evangelical Churches in US welcome gays, but obviously cannot change their religious views (the "what we believe" statement) just because a gay person walked in and started demanding it. If a new-comer is in disagreement with the beliefs of the church, then why would they want to stay and demand change? It makes sense that people find a church they are in agreement with. Its common sense, and has nothing to do with discrimination, bigotry or hatred like you like to spin it.
You are making the same mistake as others, chris. There is a difference in being born gay, and choosing to go get drunk or cheat on your wife. You aren't born a drunk or adulterer, and your choices lead you to those things. You make a choice to pick up a bottle, or go out and find someone to cheat with. This is in no way the same as being born gay. This is not a choice, it is how you are born.
So again, telling someone being a drunk and adulterer is bad is not the same as telling someone that they were born so flawed that they can not have any intimate relationships for the entirety of their lives, or they are living willfully and habitually in sin.
Can you really not understand the differences?
Through environment or genetics, there are many who would argue they don't have a choice either. We are all born to sin, one way or the other. Their sin is that. My sin is this. If we all claim, I can't change because I was born that way or this way, then we can remove personal responsibility from our actions.
I truly feel for Saint's friend. I wish I had an easy answer, I don't. There are things in my life that caused deep pain. Only God's love saved me. But those things were destructive and hurtful. They didn't go away overnight. And those things did in fact almost cause me to lose the family I have. Through God, I was able to overcome. I am not just sharing platitudes. Some serious stuff had to be overcome.
Why do any of us face some of things we do? In the end, only God knows. But if a behavior or action is against His Word, then I do need to work to change it. If I can't, do I just give in to it?!? Ultimately, that choice becomes between us and God.
Can we start here? How should a church deal with habitual sin?
It is funny how you invent claims and then ask "is this what we are supposed to believe". Classic straw man fallacy.
No one has claimed to be sinless. However, it is a problem when you choose to live in deliberate and habitual sin while making excuses for it, while demanding everyone agree your sin is not sin.
Should we continue to sin? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Everyone stumbles, but if you live in deliberate and habitual sin, you might want to examine yourself.
I doubt He would say anything different than what He said back in His day on earth.
Excellent, Finn, when you can show by anything besides your prejudice that you ARE talking about " sin" you will have made a contribution. This can be applied to Chris as well.
Yes, Jesus said nothing to the point here.
Why are the highest STD rates concentrated in the Bible Belt?
Why are the highest teen pregnancies concentrated in the Bible Belt?
Why are the highest rates for violent crime and property damage concentrated in the Bible Belt?
Why are the longest incarceration terms concentrated in the Bible Belt?
Why is the worst healthcare in the nation concentrated in the Bible Belt?
Why are the worst education levels concentrated in the Bible Belt?
(I have provided sources for the other social issues and for education it is here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karsten.../#5741d06151e1 )
Why do continue ignoring all these problems in "believer" states which probably make up ten or twenty thousand more problems for each single case of STDs among LGBTQ? And you can't blame those problems on LGBTQ people because states in the Bible Belt south average FEWER gays as a percent of their population than that of the nation as a whole--which is 3.8%
Alabama --3.0%
Mississippi -- 3.2%
Louisiana -- 3.7%
Arkansas-- 3.0%
SC - 3.5%
NC - 3.5%
Texas -- 3.6%
Tennessee -- 3.0%
Kentucky -- 3.3%
West Virginia - 3.4%
So with fewer gays, the Bible Belt still manages to score higher on the STD rate. One can only conclude is that, after you drive all the gays away from your "believer" states, the crime rate goes up, teen pregnancy increases, education declines, healthcare deteriorates---in other words the more one "believes" and practices worshiping the Bible, the more horrible social conditions become---- at least that is the same "logic" you are using about gays being a "threat."
Why do you fail to note that the CDC says YOU and your ilk are likely responsible for the increase of STDs among LGBTQ people?
I find it quite interesting that you are doing everything you can to stigmatize gay marriage and sexual activity while refusing to allow schools to teach something other than abstinence (the reason your ilk has such high teen pregnancy) nor provide health care to resolve some of the problems you have helped cause.
That truly is outright evil. Not even close to good or close to "I'm misunderstood," it is pure evil. And it resides in that heart of darkness that keeps pumping garbage onto the internet. Nathan's finger is pointing at you jeff, and he is shouting at the top of his voice "YOU ARE TO BLAME!"
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the
Inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will
shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness ,
for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious
Anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers
And you will know
My name is the TroutDude when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
I like it!
Gonna put it on a plaque and hang it over my computer.
Through environment or genetics, there are many who would argue they don't have a choice either. We are all born to sin, one way or the other. Their sin is that. My sin is this. If we all claim, I can't change because I was born that way or this way, then we can remove personal responsibility from our actions.
I truly feel for Saint's friend. I wish I had an easy answer, I don't. There are things in my life that caused deep pain. Only God's love saved me. But those things were destructive and hurtful. They didn't go away overnight. And those things did in fact almost cause me to lose the family I have. Through God, I was able to overcome. I am not just sharing platitudes. Some serious stuff had to be overcome.
Why do any of us face some of things we do? In the end, only God knows. But if a behavior or action is against His Word, then I do need to work to change it. If I can't, do I just give in to it?!? Ultimately, that choice becomes between us and God.
Can we start here? How should a church deal with habitual sin?
cd :O)
Read Romulus's deep posts on the scriptures pertaining to homosexuality.
There are only six that Christians use to denounce homosexuality. A deeper study shows that they are not wholesale condemnations of homosexuality. They have been mistranslated and have a deeper meaning than wholesale denunciation of gays.
I had to see this to move on. Open your heart and ask God to give you insight here. And ask him why Jesus did not mention homosexuality once. He spoke on sexuality yes. The biggest one is the woman caught in adultery. His main message to her? I DO NOT CONDEMN YOU.
If Jesus does not condemn one caught in the very act of what we consider "Sinful" why do we do it with such fervor? He did give her these last words. "Go and sin no more." Did he say "go and do this PARTICULAR sin no more?" or the broader "Go and sin no more."
The latter is only accomplished be going to the cross of Christ and seeing your whole sin cleansed from you, nailed to the tree, then cast as far as east is from west and.... this is the scripture here, not me... REMEMBERED NO MORE.
Jesus was more concerned about her salvation than he was about her sexual practices.
If it was go and do this sin no more, she could be upright in her sexual purity but die in her sin. Abstaining from sexual practice does not save you. Participating in sexual practices does not condemn you. Jesus saves. Simple. Gospel.
Leave it at that and let God deal with the individual with their sexual practice. Might not play well in the conservative church, people might get mad and take their membership and their tithes elsewhere so we don't get this grace filled message. It's easier to play to the crowd and be more legalistic in these matters and shun those that don't fit the norm. But I hardly think it is what Jesus established us to be or do. He didn't demonstrate such a concern. Why should we?
The gay agenda mandates you blame Christians for all ills, but it ignores facts, like the LGBT rights in non-Christian countries, which are non-existent. Just look at Asia, Africa, or mid-east.
Evangelical Churches in US welcome gays, but obviously cannot change their religious views (the "what we believe" statement) just because a gay person walked in and started demanding it. If a new-comer is in disagreement with the beliefs of the church, then why would they want to stay and demand change? It makes sense that people find a church they are in agreement with. Its common sense, and has nothing to do with discrimination, bigotry or hatred like you like to spin it.
Sometimes its lonely following Christ and his ways. Loving the unlovable. Accepting the unacceptable.
A narrow way. No mega church for me I guess.
But there are others. Where two or three are gathered....
To my fellow Christians who claim they don't hate the LGBTQ community, but love us, I have questions.
When you imply that we are a promiscuous and STD ridden, how else are we supposed to take that, oter than you being hateful?
When you compare us to pedophiles, and those who rape animals (bestiality), how are we supposed to take that, other than hateful?
When we are told that we can't serve in your churches, or deny us fellowship in same, for no other reason than the way we were born, how are we to take that, other than you being hateful and exclusionary?
When we are disowned by parents, who were entrusted by God to love unconditionally, on the advise of pastors and others...how are we supposed to take that, other than hateful?
When we share the experiences above, when we share our grief stricken hearts with you, why are you so seemingly dismissive? How are we supposed to take that, other than you being hateful?
TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS.
Some is what I believe and others is just based on alot of replies Ive seen on this topic on here.
When you imply that we are a promiscuous and STD ridden, how else are we supposed to take that, oter than you being hateful? That can sound hateful, but typically homosexual activity does lead to higher STD's, and even in metro Atlanta, most of the STD are from gays and down low men spreading it to their girlfriends, so its more Truth than hate.
When you compare us to pedophiles, and those who rape animals (bestiality), how are we supposed to take that, other than hateful? That comparison is more going with the same chapter in Leviticus, when it is listing all the sexual sins that are wrong. If it states homosexuality, incest, bestiality all back to back as a sin, you cant just pluck out Homosexuality and say its okay, and ignore everything else. So when that comparison comes up says , is bestiality, and incest now okay too if homosexuality is okay, since they are ALL listed as a sin.
When we are told that we can't serve in your churches, or deny us fellowship in same, for no other reason than the way we were born, how are we to take that, other than you being hateful and exclusionary? I wouldnt want a open homosexual in a leadership position in my church, but at the same time, I wouldnt want a man who is out sleeping with multiple women or a woman who has sex by random men all the time in a leadership position either, as all are living a sexual immoral lifestyle and you cant bring folks to Christ and tell them to repent, if you are out living just like them yourself.
Problem with the church at times is they make the homosexuals the whipping board and dont use that same energy on the heterosexuals that are getting it it on the regualr outside the church doors.
When we are disowned by parents, who were entrusted by God to love unconditionally, on the advise of pastors and others...how are we supposed to take that, other than hateful? I agree you should never disown your child. Im dealing with a relative that just came out, and while im not going to agree or glorify her lifestyle, I will still love her and not try to have nothing to do with her.
When we share the experiences above, when we share our grief stricken hearts with you, why are you so seemingly dismissive? How are we supposed to take that, other than you being hateful? I can see what you are saying, as some will damn folks straight to hell when the gay part comes out. I try to be more understanding, even though i still believe homosexuality is something that one chooses, but sometimes I wonder it would make zero sense for someone to purposely choose to be something they hate or not born like sometimes too.
MY QUESTION TO YOU
Ive heard the question asked before, but id like to hear from someone in the LGBT on this. The bible is a Hebrew Book, about a Hebrew people, with Hebrew customs, why choose a follow a religion that specifically condemns and speak agaisnt the supposed way you live?
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