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Evangelical churches do not welcome gays! They say they welcome gays to save face, and then mandate them to a lifetime of celibacy and loneliness. How is that welcome?
This is a debate that would be great to win here and for the church to reconcile itself to LGBTQ people, but you must know that a religious doctrine that flies in the face of science will wither and die as generations pass. That's pretty much how it has happened throughout the history of Christianity with the more repugnant doctrines (slavery, creationism, divorce, corporal punishment of children) and this one won't be different. It would just be great if it happened sooner rather than later, and without so much animosity.
Or how about a lifetime of serving the Lord? What is a lifetime? Compared to eternity, it's a blink, a blip, here and gone. So basically you are saying that our happiness for a few short decades in this sin cursed world is more important that a relationship with God and investing in eternal happiness. You won't have a partner in the next life so does it really matter so much here?
You know the Bible never taught for slaves to rise up and break their chains. It taught to make the best of the cards we are dealt and give our burdens to the Lord. That's all that matters most in this life. Not our jobs or relationships.
First of all, I only brought up the issue of STDS to counter the claim that same sex relationships absolutely causes no one any harm. How can you sit there and say that no harm is happening here:
EIGHTY PERCENT! That's a huge difference. Obviously, something is going on that is different. Sad that people like you will just turn a blind eye to the real physical dangers here.
Ok, so I'm not suppose to talk about homosexuality (and the risks of gay sex are part of that discussion) in a thread that is all about homosexuality in which you have deemed that it should always remain open? If How asinine is that? If that wasn't his implication then what does his statement contribute to the discussion? Nothing. It's just a cheap shot.
Jeff should really read what he posts, because the answer is in the conclusion... You can tell he clearly knows nothing about PCOS or women...
There is a significantly higher prevalence of PCO and PCOS in lesbian compared with heterosexual women. Lesbian women with either PCO or PCOS had more pronounced hyperandrogenism
From Wiki:
PCOS is a set of symptoms due to elevated androgens (male hormones) (this is hyperandrogenism, Jeff) in females.
How do you get to post in red? I understand moderators don't want postings in red because they use that color for their censorship.
LGBTQ is important because its a social issue enhanced politically by aggressive use of the process of litigation. It has never been certified by popular vote and it has never been justified by any reference to any established moral code or religious authority. Nevertheless because of the feral aggressive tendencies of its proponents, the movement has been given a grudging acknowledgement by those who would otherwise oppose it.
The assault continues upon religious and personal preferences of those that live outside the LGBTQ community and who prefer not to be soiled by that particular vulgarity. Claiming to demand acceptance the LGBTQ community denies it to everyone who disagrees with them. The fact the Bible denies its legitimacy carries no weight with them as they prefer to establish their own form of morality.
Nevertheless the Bible promises the Second Death to anyone who refuses to accept the standard of living and divine guidance afforded by the Most High. Repentance is a dirty word to such people. They will have their reward despite being warned repeatedly and often. There is no fear of God in their eyes. Actually there is no fear in the eyes of most folks these days. Wrath is coming because of this. Watch and learn, pilgrim.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....
Still foaming at the mouth, I see. Where did the gay agenda hurt you, CL?
CL, you have lost no freedoms just because other people gained some. Grow up.
Or how about a lifetime of serving the Lord? What is a lifetime? Compared to eternity, it's a blink, a blip, here and gone. So basically you are saying that our happiness for a few short decades in this sin cursed world is more important that a relationship with God and investing in eternal happiness. You won't have a partner in the next life so does it really matter so much here?
You know the Bible never taught for slaves to rise up and break their chains. It taught to make the best of the cards we are dealt and give our burdens to the Lord. That's all that matters most in this life. Not our jobs or relationships.
Oh, you know, just Jeff saying we should be slaves.... Hard pass.
How do you get to post in red? I understand moderators don't want postings in red because they use that color for their censorship.
LGBTQ is important because its a social issue enhanced politically by aggressive use of the process of litigation. It has never been certified by popular vote and it has never been justified by any reference to any established moral code or religious authority. Nevertheless because of the feral aggressive tendencies of its proponents, the movement has been given a grudging acknowledgement by those who would otherwise oppose it.
The assault continues upon religious and personal preferences of those that live outside the LGBTQ community and who prefer not to be soiled by that particular vulgarity. Claiming to demand acceptance the LGBTQ community denies it to everyone who disagrees with them. The fact the Bible denies its legitimacy carries no weight with them as they prefer to establish their own form of morality.
Nevertheless the Bible promises the Second Death to anyone who refuses to accept the standard of living and divine guidance afforded by the Most High. Repentance is a dirty word to such people. They will have their reward despite being warned repeatedly and often. There is no fear of God in their eyes. Actually there is no fear in the eyes of most folks these days. Wrath is coming because of this. Watch and learn, pilgrim.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....
I have fear...of judging another. I wonder why so few fear that, because Jesus promised we would be measured by how we judge. If anyone actually believed that, they would tread so very carefully in this arena.
You think your environment is what makes someone gay? How do you explain someone like myself then?
I am trying to move the question to be more general about sin. You say people are born that way. People can claim to be born many ways. I am saying we are born sinners. Lets take a step back and just look at sin in general.
How should the church deal with habitual sin, any habitual sin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
As to this removing personal responsibility, you are still falling into the same ignorance trap as Jeff and the others. Being gay is in no way the same as being an alcoholic or adulterer. You can't stop being gay, you can stop being an alcoholic or adulterer. Sure, if people ran around saying, "I'm was born an alcoholic adulterer!" then maybe you would have a point. But even if someone is predisposed to be an alcoholic, that isn't the same as being born gay. All you need to do to stop being an alcoholic is stop buying alcohol. How do you stop being gay? Death.
I don't think you are being quite fair to people that have addictions. It is not just a matter of stopping this or that. I think you actually know that. Again, I am trying to see if we are on the same page with how to deal with habitual sin. Our brain, our chemistries, etc. are quite complex. Those things cause people to do all sorts of things. But if an action is wrong, we can't blame it on that.
If someone is predisposed to alcoholism, how can you say it isn't the same thing? If their very genetics give them a thirst for it, an almost uninsatiable, desire for it; they must have it, how isn't it the same thing? Our very nature is to sin. God overcomes that
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
I am sorry that you had serious things to overcome, and I am in no way trying to make light of that. But saying you feel sorry for him means very little, when you would be there telling him he is willfully living in sin for being gay. For being who he is. You are, quite literally, asking gay people to pretend they are not gay, because you believe God thinks it is a sin....
Do you not understand how harmful that is? Much more harmful than them being gay, I can assure you that.
I was willfully living in sin, habitual sin. Yet, God did change me. What my sin was/is is irrelevant. I could claim I was born a certain way. Who are you to say I wasn't when you don't even know what it is? I was on a track leading to death. God picked me up. Saved me through His Son and over years, helped me be who I am.
Again, what I would say on day "1" and day "365" to anyone living in habitual sin are different things. Can we figure out how a church should respond to habitual sin? How does the Word tell us to deal with it? For the sake of argument, let's leave LGBTQ out of the equation for the moment. Pick any other habitual sin you want. How does the Bible say to deal with it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
Again, you are equating being born with a certain orientation, and other sins that can be stopped. The only way you can stop being gay, is to be dead. The only way you can live your life as a gay person, without doing anything that would be considered a gay act, would be to live your entire life alone, and without a partner. If that is what your version of God wants for gay people, then he is a monster.
This isn't someone who works to stop cursing, or works to stop watching porn or something. You aren't born with those things, and you can change them. They are almost like an addiction. Being gay is not. The sooner you hear this, and understand it, the better off you will be. Fact is, almost any gay person you ask will gladly tell you that they did not choose to be gay. One of my good friends actually said that she didn't choose to be gay, and if God is too vengeful and petty to understand that she is merely being who he made her to be, then he can just go ahead and send her to hell, because she isn't going to pretend.
As for your question, how do they handle it now? Nearly every person in the pews is a habitual sinner. You guys just draw a line at gay people. You are perfectly fine with adulterers, people with porn addictions, alcoholics, smokers, people with tattoos, and all sorts of other things that would go against the Bible. Why is that, exactly?
I don't think most of us here believe that our God is a monster. And we probably believe that our God wants the greatest gift of all, salvation and eternal life for all of us sinners. We can also probably agree that he does not want us to be slaves to sin. Christ set us free. We do disagree on what sins are holding us captive. So how do we get along, with such a big disagreement? I am not trying to be hateful. I don't think you are either.
I wish churches would be the same across the board, they are not. Churches are filled with imperfect people. I'm not drawing a line with any particular sin. I'm trying to draw a line with any habitual sin. We are supposed to be working to be less sinful. I am not perfectly fine with a,b,c . I believe a,b,c has to be dealt with. I believe the Word of God gives us some insight. Can we agree on that?
First of all, I only brought up the issue of STDS to counter the claim that same sex relationships absolutely causes no one any harm. How can you sit there and say that no harm is happening here:
EIGHTY PERCENT! That's a huge difference. Obviously, something is going on that is different. Sad that people like you will just turn a blind eye to the real physical dangers here.
Ok, so I'm not suppose to talk about homosexuality (and the risks of gay sex are part of that discussion) in a thread that is all about homosexuality in which you have deemed that it should always remain open? If How asinine is that? If that wasn't his implication then what does his statement contribute to the discussion? Nothing. It's just a cheap shot.
Jeff...I feel as if I am speaking another language here. PCOS is a condition not caused by anything anyone does. Being attracted to women does not cause this condition. You understand that, don't you?
As for the other, sexual activity is really irrelevant to the overarching conversation, yet that is what you focus on, so yeah, it's not surprising that it was noted that you do so.
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