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I am trying to move the question to be more general about sin. You say people are born that way. People can claim to be born many ways. I am saying we are born sinners. Lets take a step back and just look at sin in general.
How should the church deal with habitual sin, any habitual sin?
Why would you move the goalposts in a thread about homosexuality?
And to just poo-poo it away because "People can claim to be born many ways", as if we are all lying, just shows that you believe we choose it.
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Originally Posted by chrisCD
I don't think you are being quite fair to people that have addictions. It is not just a matter of stopping this or that. I think you actually know that. Again, I am trying to see if we are on the same page with how to deal with habitual sin. Our brain, our chemistries, etc. are quite complex. Those things cause people to do all sorts of things. But if an action is wrong, we can't blame it on that.
If someone is predisposed to alcoholism, how can you say it isn't the same thing? If their very genetics give them a thirst for it, an almost uninsatiable, desire for it; they must have it, how isn't it the same thing? Our very nature is to sin. God overcomes that
Actually, it is, for the most part. I know, because I used to be a smoker. My mom got diagnosed with CoPD, and I quit that day. Never smoked another cigarette since. So how can I claim it isn't the same? Because it isn't. Quitting alcohol or cigarettes requires nothing but you to stop buying them, and willpower. You can't stop being gay. They are not comparable.
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Originally Posted by chrisCD
I was willfully living in sin, habitual sin. Yet, God did change me. What my sin was/is is irrelevant. I could claim I was born a certain way. Who are you to say I wasn't when you don't even know what it is? I was on a track leading to death. God picked me up. Saved me through His Son and over years, helped me be who I am.
No, it isn't irrelevant. If your "sin" is being gay, then you didn't change. It really is that simple.
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Originally Posted by chrisCD
Again, what I would say on day "1" and day "365" to anyone living in habitual sin are different things. Can we figure out how a church should respond to habitual sin? How does the Word tell us to deal with it? For the sake of argument, let's leave LGBTQ out of the equation for the moment. Pick any other habitual sin you want. How does the Bible say to deal with it?
I am not going to leave LGBT out of it, because that is the topic of the thread. My point, is that everyone in your church is a habitual sinner, yet you treat them differently than you do gay people. The difference? They choose their sin.
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Originally Posted by chrisCD
I don't think most of us here believe that our God is a monster. And we probably believe that our God wants the greatest gift of all, salvation and eternal life for all of us sinners. We can also probably agree that he does not want us to be slaves to sin. Christ set us free. We do disagree on what sins are holding us captive. So how do we get along, with such a big disagreement? I am not trying to be hateful. I don't think you are either.
He certainly is if he creates someone to be gay, and then tells them they have to live their life alone or go to hell. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it. You seem to see being gay as nothing more than any other sin, and that is simply not true, and not the reality of things. Maybe you don't understand that because you have never dealt directly with it. I have, and millions of others, yet you dismiss what we say as us just being liars, or unable to control our sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisCD
I wish churches would be the same across the board, they are not. Churches are filled with imperfect people. I'm not drawing a line with any particular sin. I'm trying to draw a line with any habitual sin. We are supposed to be working to be less sinful. I am not perfectly fine with a,b,c . I believe a,b,c has to be dealt with. I believe the Word of God gives us some insight. Can we agree on that?
cd :O)
And that is fine, but not everyone agrees with what you believe is a "sin". Even within Christianity, people can't agree. You think it is a sin for people to be who they were born to be. I don't. You think being gay is like being an alcoholic or speeding on the interstate. I don't.
The problem isn't that you think this, either. It is that you expect others to also believe this, or they are habitually living in sin, and against God.
That being said, I have no hate directed towards you, chris. I also do not usually post on weekends, and instead hang out with my family, so if you respond, I am not ignoring you, and will respond on Monday. Have a great weekend.
I have fear...of judging another. I wonder why so few fear that, because Jesus promised we would be measured by how we judge. If anyone actually believed that, they would tread so very carefully in this arena.
the exact measure we ‘mete’ it will be measured to us
Yep.... love God and love our neighbour is the sum total of our personal responsibilities
As individuals we should be totally transparent in who we are, not using religious organisations with their ideas, agendas, beliefs to hide behind
The religious organisations were prophecied to twist the scriptures in both Testaments
Jer 8:8 How do you say, We are wise, and the Law of Jehovah is with us? Behold, the lying pen of the scribes has certainly worked deceit.
Jer 8:9 The wise are ashamed; they are terrified and are captured. Behold, they have rejected the Word of Jehovah, and what wisdom is theirs?
Jer 8:10 So I will give their wives to others, their fields to those who shall inherit. For everyone from the least even to the greatest cuts off a profit. From the prophet even to the priest, everyone deals falsely.
Jer 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, saying, Peace, peace! And there is no peace.
False Prophets and Teachers
2Pe 2:1 But false prophets were also among the people, as also false teachers will be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, and denying the Master who has bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their destructive ways, by whom the way of truth will be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And by covetousness, with well-turned words, they will use you for gain, for whom judgment of old does not linger, and their destruction does not slumber.
The problem I see is that Christianity as a whole misunderstood and reduced the scriptures as literal, historical documents about their ‘individual’ salvation to a literal place called heaven.... just like the Jews thought the scriptures were about sacrificing literal animals to God
I am trying to move the question to be more general about sin. You say people are born that way. People can claim to be born many ways. I am saying we are born sinners. Lets take a step back and just look at sin in general.
How should the church deal with habitual sin, any habitual sin?
<snipped>
Please stay on topic. If you want to discuss "habitual sin" or a topic other than the thread topic, start a new thread.
Through environment or genetics, there are many who would argue they don't have a choice either. We are all born to sin, one way or the other. Their sin is that. My sin is this. If we all claim, I can't change because I was born that way or this way, then we can remove personal responsibility from our actions.
I truly feel for Saint's friend. I wish I had an easy answer, I don't. There are things in my life that caused deep pain. Only God's love saved me. But those things were destructive and hurtful. They didn't go away overnight. And those things did in fact almost cause me to lose the family I have. Through God, I was able to overcome. I am not just sharing platitudes. Some serious stuff had to be overcome.
Why do any of us face some of things we do? In the end, only God knows. But if a behavior or action is against His Word, then I do need to work to change it. If I can't, do I just give in to it?!? Ultimately, that choice becomes between us and God.
Can we start here? How should a church deal with habitual sin?
cd :O)
How does the church deal with fat people and adulterers who divorced for other than adultery and married another? Fat people are in the pulpit, the choir, and church council, the same as those adulterers who can never "unadulterate" themselves. The bible explicitly says remarrying IS adultery.
If you don't want to be hypocritical as well as hateful, then every position held in a church by a fat "christian" should be available to gay christians. And I know you got plenty of fatties in church---I was one, with a license to preach, too.
But you wont go there because the logic is solid and bigotry is not.
Jeff...I feel as if I am speaking another language here. PCOS is a condition not caused by anything anyone does. Being attracted to women does not cause this condition. You understand that, don't you?
As for the other, sexual activity is really irrelevant to the overarching conversation, yet that is what you focus on, so yeah, it's not surprising that it was noted that you do so.
Then how about you explain why these health organizations are associating it with lesbianism. You can't obviously.
If the argument is that same sex relationships causes ZERO harm then discussion about the risks of sexual activity is most certainly relevant. Even if I focused on it, so what? Pointing that out serves no purpose.
Even if we ignore PCOS, the data firmly shows that lesbians also have higher risks of diseases:\
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The existing literature, however, suggests WSW/WSMW have higher rates of STI diagnosis and higher rates of engagement in several STI risk indicators, including intravenous drug use, exchanging sex for money, more lifetime sexual partners, and unprotected opposite-sex relationships, compared to women who have exclusively male partners (Bailey et al., 2004; Bauer, Jairam, & Baidoobonso, 2010; Fethers et al., 2000; Rosario, Meyer-Bahlburg, Hunter, & Gwadz, 1999; Reisner et al., 2010; Scheer et al., 2002).
Then how about you explain why these health organizations are associating it with lesbianism. You can't obviously.
If the argument is that same sex relationships causes ZERO harm then discussion about the risks of sexual activity is most certainly relevant. Even if I focused on it, so what? Pointing that out serves no purpose.
Here's how one Christian church in Tennessee loves and accepts LGBT people. The man wanted his funeral to be held in the first church he attended and he wanted his son to sing at his funeral. Since his son is gay, the pastor at the church refused to hold the service in the church. The church is punishing a dead man because his son is gay.
Then how about you explain why these health organizations are associating it with lesbianism. You can't obviously.
If the argument is that same sex relationships causes ZERO harm then discussion about the risks of sexual activity is most certainly relevant. Even if I focused on it, so what? Pointing that out serves no purpose.
The argument has never been that same sex relationships cause zero harm. The topic is not actually sexual activity, either.
And if you think pointing something out serves no purpose, ignore it.
The topic is LGBTQ people and their relationship with Christianity. Though you keep trying to divert from that topic by pointing around wildly to gay sex and gay health issues, it does give others some insight into what some of the problem might be. You have a different concept of gay people from what most of us do.
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