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Please stop putting words in my mouth. I have never suggested such a thing, nor would I.
The point is that instead of loudly proclaiming "This is me!", where is the self-denial? No one is suggesting that you harm yourself, so please don't even suggest that for a second.
As soon as you deny with absolute conviction that you are male, I will deny that I am female. I am female. I was born this way. I had two options, and only two options. There was no third.
As soon as you deny with absolute conviction that you are male, I will deny that I am female. I am female. I was born this way. I had two options, and only two options. There was no third.
1. Come out.
2. Commit suicide.
I choose life.
And those of us beyond spiritual pre-school are very glad you made that choice.
Ignore the spiritually retarded. They bellow. But their bellowing is increasingly impotent and whiny. They know they've lost.
Thank you for the book suggestion. I actually ordered it from Amazon and will have it on Saturday.
By the way, your education and licensing information isn’t all that impressive to me. The Pharisees were the most educated of their time for the Word of God, but they were wrong. However I will read the book.
The difference between the way I read Scripture and that of Pharisees then and fundamentalists now, is that I read ALL Scripture through Jesus’ eyes. Some call it the Red Letter Bible. Nothing in Scripture is valid if it doesn’t fit in with the image of Jesus.
Scholastic study of Scripture is the ONLY way to read it. Sunday School study never approaches cultural nuances and linguistic analysis the way scholarly study does. Are you aware that there were at least four authors of Genesis, none named Moses? That the entire book is an amalgamation of several narratives?
If you wish to understand the importance of scholarly study then read Peter Enns’ book, Inspiration and Incarnation.
Quote:
How can an evangelical view of Scripture be reconciled with modern biblical scholarship? In this book Peter Enns, an expert in biblical interpretation, addresses Old Testament phenomena that challenge traditional evangelical perspectives on Scripture. He then suggests a way forward, proposing an incarnational model of biblical inspiration that takes seriously both the divine and the human aspects of Scripture. This tenth anniversary edition has an updated bibliography and includes a substantive postscript that reflects on the reception of the first edition.
That's not what the gay agenda groups want. All the evidence points to them desiring to destroy Christianity and force us to worship their lifestyle, even praise it over heterosexuality.
Is there anyone else here who can back up Jeff's claim that some 'gay agenda group' is out to destroy Christianity? Is there anyone else here who can back up Jeff's claim that some 'gay agenda group' is out to get Christians to 'worship their lifestyle'?
This is a common claim from Jeff and I personally have not come across any such group that is doing either. Perhaps I live in the wrong city where no such thing is going on; however, we DO have 24/7 access to world news.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
There is already a law being pushed through in CA to force pastors to accept homosexuality or be punished.
As above. Can anyone here substantiate this claim by Jeff? I think Jeff is making this stuff up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The singling out of Christian business owners who based on their religious beliefs did not want to get with an immoral ceremony and punishing them severely. A 100K fine and destroying their business for good because of a very minor instance where they refused to serve a gay wedding? Anyone who wasn't so personally tied to this issue would admit that this penalty was way overblown.
Perhaps it was way overblown and I personally would not have imposed such a harsh penalty on them. But, I'm not the law. Moreover, the penalty imposed on these folks would have had nothing to do with homosexuality per se but with regard to an act of discrimination which, according to the law, had been violated. You're making this a 'gay' issue which it is not. It's a 'law of the land' issue. Gay people have nothing to do with the penalty imposed on the business owners. If you have a complaint about the law then take it up with the law-makers, not gay people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
So what happened to separation of church and state, huh? Seems like gays want the state to get heavily involved in dictating how we believe. This is America and freedom of religion is #1 in the law.
You're being silly, Jeff. Gay people don't make the laws of the land. Your elected law-makers do.
Is there anyone else here who can back up Jeff's claim that some 'gay agenda group' is out to destroy Christianity? Is there anyone else here who can back up Jeff's claim that some 'gay agenda group' is out to get Christians to 'worship their lifestyle'?
This is a common claim from Jeff and I personally have not come across any such group that is doing either. Perhaps I live in the wrong city where no such thing is going on; however, we DO have 24/7 access to world news.
As above. Can anyone here substantiate this claim by Jeff? I think Jeff is making this stuff up.
Perhaps it was way overblown and I personally would not have imposed such a harsh penalty on them. But, I'm not the law. Moreover, the penalty imposed on these folks would have had nothing to do with homosexuality per se but with regard to an act of discrimination which, according to the law, had been violated. You're making this a 'gay' issue which it is not. It's a 'law of the land' issue. Gay people have nothing to do with the penalty imposed on the business owners. If you have a complaint about the law then take it up with the law-makers, not gay people.
You're being silly, Jeff. Gay people don't make the laws of the land. Your elected law-makers do.
Might have a problem Rom with bolded.
Romans 13:1 New International Version (NIV)
Submission to Governing Authorities
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Is there anyone else here who can back up Jeff's claim that some 'gay agenda group' is out to destroy Christianity? Is there anyone else here who can back up Jeff's claim that some 'gay agenda group' is out to get Christians to 'worship their lifestyle'?
This is a common claim from Jeff and I personally have not come across any such group that is doing either. Perhaps I live in the wrong city where no such thing is going on; however, we DO have 24/7 access to world news.
No, I'm certainly not part of any "organized agenda." That's more of a political accusation. The issue being discussed here should be discussed solely on its own merits: what are the gospel ethics regarding LGBT people? Nothing more. This is about our faith not living up to its ideals. Insofar as Christianity does not live up to its ideals, and any random person on the street can see the hypocrisy of not loving everyone, THAT will destroy Christianity. So, from my keyboard here, I'm trying to preserve it.
Here are articles from two extremes. (Both sites ask for donations.)
"Earlier this month, Low introduced a resolution, ACR-99, which calls upon religious leaders to approach LGBTQ issues with love, compassion and knowledge of the harms caused by conversion therapy, and calls upon Californians “to embrace the individual and social benefits of family and community acceptance.” It also calls upon the people and institutions of California “to model equitable treatment of all people of the state.” The resolution was approved by the Judiciary Committee on Tuesday.
As the committee’s analysis of the resolution makes clear, it is non-binding and “what it calls for is quite modest relative to past legislative efforts.” But you’d never know that from the headlines from Christian media and anti-LGBTQ organizations."
Here is an article from the Christian Broadcasting Network.
"California Senate passed a resolution telling Christian clergy to accept and support LGBTQ ideology, even if doing so violates their Christian beliefs.
Assembly Concurrent Resolution 99 (ACR-99) was introduced by Democratic state Assemblyman Evan Low of San Jose on June 4 as a way to gather support for LGBTQ identity and behaviors.
CBN News previously reported that more than two dozen doctors, counselors, former homosexuals, and other Christian leaders signed a letter condemning the resolution, which they said violates religious freedom."
The difference between the way I read Scripture and that of Pharisees then and fundamentalists now, is that I read ALL Scripture through Jesus’ eyes. Some call it the Red Letter Bible. Nothing in Scripture is valid if it doesn’t fit in with the image of Jesus.
Scholastic study of Scripture is the ONLY way to read it. Sunday School study never approaches cultural nuances and linguistic analysis the way scholarly study does. Are you aware that there were at least four authors of Genesis, none named Moses? That the entire book is an amalgamation of several narratives?
If you wish to understand the importance of scholarly study then read Peter Enns’ book, Inspiration and Incarnation.
This book has nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with HOW we read the Bible.
Again thank you for the book reference but I’ll take one of your suggestions at a time. I’d like to read the “Changing Our Mind” book first and go from there.
Yes, I’m familiar with the red letters and reading through the eyes of Jesus. However, you have to look at who He was talking to, the context and the time period (dispensation).
It's discrimination to tell an LGBT person they can't serve at church, be a leader, be a member, play the organ, whatever. It's discrimination to say "we won't affirm your relationship" when all the couples get together at the church picnic and the gay couple gets the weird looks. That's classic discrimination.
What do you believe qualifies one to be leadership in a church? Does agreement with doctrine have ANYTHING to do with it?
Quote:
Gay couples won't feel welcome, even if a church says they are welcome. Imagine: if a church full of celibates who thought any kind of sex was evil said that you and your wife are "welcome" but you couldn't serve, couldn't be a member, etc. and they were not going to condone your "sinful" behavior, you would probably not want to go there and would feel discriminated against for simply being who you are naturally.
I would likely not go there for doctrinal reasons. I wouldn't try to entrap them into a lawsuit, or go on message boards to whine and moan about it.
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