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Old 01-30-2020, 05:49 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Thank you! I can understand the distinction you make. To me, the spirit fills both purposes. Do you believe either the spirit or the soul (as you understand these terms) ceases to exist at death? For instance, I believe the body dies and, due to the absence of the spirit, the human soul is no longer in tact. I see the human spirit as never dying as as never ceasing to be a cognizant entity.
I believe that both soul and spirit continue on after physical death. One bit of Scripture that supports the continence of the soul after physical death is Matthew 10:28 where Jesus says in the first part of the verse to not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. That suggests that the soul does not cease to exist---does not die when the body dies.
Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul (ψυχὴν~psuché); but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in geenna (Gehenna).
Without getting into a discussion on the second part of the verse, if man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, I take that to mean that Jesus was saying that the soul continues on after physical death.

Last edited by Michael Way; 01-30-2020 at 06:00 PM..
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Old 01-30-2020, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Townsville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
What did she miss? She started out with John 5:25 (as above). The verse is saying that the hour is coming (but who knows when that hour will be?) when the dead (those that presently 'sleep' in their graves) will hear the voice of Jesus (at His second coming) and rise from their graves. We see a single example of this when the voice of Jesus causes Lazarus (John 11:1-44) to rise from the dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Read the verse again...
If something is being missed here it might be more helpful if you were to tell us precisely what that is. Thanks.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I believe that both soul and spirit continue on after physical death. One bit of Scripture that supports the continence of the soul after physical death is Matthew 10:28 where Jesus says in the first part of the verse to not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. That suggests that the soul does not cease to exist---does not die when the body dies.
Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul (ψυχὴν~psuché); but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in geenna (Gehenna).
Without getting into a discussion on the second part of the verse, if man can kill the body but cannot kill the soul, I take that to mean that Jesus was saying that the soul continues on after physical death.
Then essentially, we believe alike, except that I use just one word to cover what you use two words to explain. We agree that our consciousness, the part of us that relates to both the spiritual and physical world, survives death. It is only the body that dies.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:11 PM
 
3,220 posts, read 909,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBear View Post
How do you then take Jesus's answer in Luke 23:43 to the thief on the cross: ""Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Seems to me, he said that repentant thief was going to paradise IMMEDIATELY at death.

Are you saying Jesus lied?
He didn’t lie but it didn’t mean he would be in heaven. People don’t go to heaven after there physical body dies.

The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:13 PM
 
Location: NC
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Thanks everyone for your responses. I will try to respond to most responses this weekend. Just a quick post concerning, John 5:25. and 1 Corin. 15.

Jesus says that the dead will hear His voice and live.


John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.



He refers to them as being in the grave or tomb.



John 5:28 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment


This means that they are dead and they will come forth.This is not only referring to the body. It is referring to the actual person. They are not living with Him in heaven if they are dead.

They are not living with Him in heaven if they will hear His voice, and then live or be judged.
They will hear Him and then and only then, will they rise from the dead. Up until that time, they are dead.



Also, the apostle Paul says that if the dead are not raised, then we perish. He was speaking about some who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. He says if there is no resurrection of the dead, then we perish.


1 Corinthians 15: 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.


This means that when person dies, if they are not raised from the dead, they have perished. This means that even though the spirit returns to God upon death, there is no conscious living with Him when this happens, because we perish, if we are not raised from the dead. The spirit returns to God, the body and soul die. The person is dead until they are resurrected by the Lord. The resurrection is essential, is key, is necessary for us to live again.

This is where death is defeated. Jesus defeated death when He was raised from the dead.

If we go to be with Jesus consciously, immediately when we "die" to live with Him forever, we have not really died. We are still living and there is no need for a resurrection. Again, Paul says if there is no resurrection of the dead, we perish.

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-30-2020 at 09:30 PM..
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:17 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,928 posts, read 26,160,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Then essentially, we believe alike, except that I use just one word to cover what you use two words to explain. We agree that our consciousness, the part of us that relates to both the spiritual and physical world, survives death. It is only the body that dies.
I can live with that, Katz.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:20 PM
 
3,220 posts, read 909,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
What did she miss? She started out with John 5:25 (as above). The verse is saying that the hour is coming (but who knows when that hour will be?) when the dead (those that presently 'sleep' in their graves) will hear the voice of Jesus (at His second coming) and rise from their graves. We see a single example of this when the voice of Jesus causes Lazarus (John 11:1-44) to rise from the dead.
The dead are sinners. The voice is that of the prophets, the son of man and son of God, myself included. The grave is symbolic of death.

Hearing requires believing. Believing is doing the works of God. Doing the works of God is walking in the light. The light is the truth. The truth is God’s word.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,914 posts, read 29,727,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I can live with that, Katz.
Could you possibly help BaptistFundie to learn that this kind of non-judgmental acceptance of differences is okay? He seems to see the two of you as being very closely aligned in your beliefs.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Townsville QLD Australia.
3,061 posts, read 898,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
If something is being missed here it might be more helpful if you were to tell us precisely what that is. Thanks.
Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; The Lord God our saviour, The Son of Man, the most-high in the creation, said to Moses; “I will raise up for them a prophet just like you from among their own brethren; and I will put ‘MY WORDS’ in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not give heed to ‘MY WORDS’ which he shall speak in MY NAME, I myself will punish.

Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, in reference to the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

Even the people of his day did not believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? For on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that the Lord God our saviour, ‘The Son of Man, who is the only begotten son of God’ had PROMISED that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name, AFTER PUTTING HIS WORDS/SPIRIT INTO HIS MOUTH.

John 5: 24-25; “I am telling you the truth: those who hear my words and believe in him (The Son of God) who sent me have eternal life. They will not be judged, but have already passed from death to life. I am telling you the truth: the time is coming — the time has already come — when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, (Who chose Jesus as his prophet from among the Israelites and sent him to speak HIS WORDS in HIS NAME,) and those who hear it will come to life.
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Old 01-30-2020, 08:56 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,928 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Could you possibly help BaptistFundie to learn that this kind of non-judgmental acceptance of differences is okay? He seems to see the two of you as being very closely aligned in your beliefs.
Uh. . .I think that's probably something everyone has to come to on their own.
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