Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think a lot of people speak of pacifism from a place of privilege and hypothetical musings. It's fine to believe in pacifism, but a heck of lot harder to put it into practice when you're on the receiving end of (or a witness to) violence, exploitation, imminent physical danger, or the ravages of living in a war-torn nation. I don't think one can truly call one's self a pacifist unless they have put it into practice in truly desperate situations and discovered that sometimes there is no nonviolent option.
As an example, it's coming from a place of privilege to be conscience objector to serving in the military... when the war is not occurring on your own turf.
Last edited by Ginge McFantaPants; 02-06-2020 at 12:16 PM..
I think a lot of people speak of pacifism from a place of privilege and hypothetical musings. It's fine to believe in pacifism, but a heck of lot harder to put it into practice when you're on the receiving end of (or a witness to) violence, exploitation, imminent physical danger, or the ravages of living in a war-torn nation. I don't think one can truly all one's self a pacifist unless they have put it into practice in truly desperate situations and discovered that sometimes there is no nonviolent option.
The way I see it, I consider myself a peacemaker, but not necessarily a pacifist . I respect pacifists, but over the years this is just where I've landed on the issue. I've spent a lot of time practicing martial arts, where I've thought about the issues of defending oneself vs. 'turning the other cheek.' The closest I've come is the principles of Aikido, which is known as the 'art of peace' even though it uses techniques that can harm. It emphasizes one's state of mind when defending oneself. That state of mind should be clear, free of anger and self-serving motives, and acting from love. From that intention, the actions follow. I don't think defending oneself is contrary to Jesus' teachings. I also think that the idea of 'righteous anger' is an over-used excuse for someone's self-serving anger, and one of the more dangerous religious ideas.
That being said, I believe the reason why Jesus used such strong hyperbole on this issue is to stress the absolute necessity of making every effort possible to achieve peace--internal and external. For too long, I've seen Christians condone war when every effort possible wasn't exhausted first. Or by really stretching the definition of 'self defense' by saying 'our interests' are threatened somewhere, when those 'interests' may be just about anything, not necessarily our survival. Christians really should be the voice of peacemaking, not war. So why aren't there more pacifists is a good question. My guess is that the moment Christianity became linked with Empire, any path toward peacemaking was obscured.
I have been in multiple war-torn countries and found that if good people stand back, doing nothing, evil prevails. Often times, the best defense is a sound and strong offense. Although, a peacemaker myself, sometimes, it may require that of taking action. But you should always consider the cost. It may require that you lay down your life for that of another.
" When a strong man armed keepeth his palace , his goods are IN PEACE "
(Jesus- Luke 11:21 )
I am a pacifist and if someone would attempt to hurt or kill a loved one , ( and for that matter a complete stranger ) , I would
not hesitate to take whatever measure of force was needed to intervene and stop it .
Including the laying down of my own life in the attempt .
" Greater love hath no man than this , that a man lay down his life for his friends . "
( Jesus - John 15:13 )
You misunderstand. He is not speaking of physical life.
“It is the spirit that gives life the flesh is useless. The WORDS I spoke to you ARE spirit and LIFEâ€.
Why aren't more of us pacifists? It seems like we have the technology to destroy the world and we need love to prevent it from happening.
Probably 6 years ago or so I was naive and thought all Christians were pacifists or close to it. I know....some of you will say I am still very naïve.
I don't have anything against veterans or the military....and they do what they believe is right just as I do. In fact, you know I like to do community service at retirement homes...well of course I don't have favorites there, but I enjoy playing games and listening to veterans
Spoiler
I lied...the veterans tend to be the best and most fun at the retirement home...shhh, don't tell the others!!!
.
I am sure there are angles that I am missing.
Peacemakers are not those who promote the peace of man but the peace of God. Big difference.
“Peace is my gift to you. My peace is my farewell to you. I do not give it as the world does.â€
Jesus was not speaking of the physical aspect of turning your cheek.
" When a strong man armed keepeth his palace , his goods are IN PEACE "(Jesus- Luke 11:21 )
I think in context this is not advocating anything violent, in fact the very next sentence is a stronger man stealing from that strong man.... In context I think it is a story about following God's word.
Those two definitions do not equate. I am not understanding your confusion?
The whole turn your cheek and love your enemies verse seems pacifist to me and I think the peacemaker one can be as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Promoting the belief that a people have God on their side in war is a long-time human method of gathering support and troops for war. Often religion is given as the reason for the war, but the underlying cause is almost always power or the pursuit of wealth or land. It's a prevalent theme in the Bible itself.
More Christians should be pacifists, but all too often they jump on the "God is on our side" bandwagon. You are too young to remember 9/11/01, but that sort of talk in the aftermath got the war drums beating almost from the get-go, and American Christians everywhere fell for it.
Yes...I was alive...but still in smelly diapers ….God cries when we kill each other in his name.
Eisenhower, although a military man, was a devout Christian and his mom was a Christian Pacifist. I think he brings up a good point of spending our money, genius, sweat, and hope on military things too much and not enough on building up human's condition.
I don't believe in the concept of pacifism. I believe in using whatever amount of force is necessary to defend yourself or others.
I worry that some people....not you per se....interpret "whatever amount....to defend" as it is okay to launch preemptive violent strikes that actually were only necessary in the eye of the beholder but imaginary in the eye's of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unfailing presence
What would you call a person that would resort to violence to prevent their wife, child from being raped & murdered then ?
Well...if they only use violence in defense...they might be a "Non-Aggressionist" where they disavow first aggression, but will be aggressive if first met with aggression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmom2
The way I see it, I consider myself a peacemaker, but not necessarily a pacifist . I respect pacifists, but over the years this is just where I've landed on the issue. I've spent a lot of time practicing martial arts, where I've thought about the issues of defending oneself vs. 'turning the other cheek.' The closest I've come is the principles of Aikido, which is known as the 'art of peace' even though it uses techniques that can harm. It emphasizes one's state of mind when defending oneself. That state of mind should be clear, free of anger and self-serving motives, and acting from love. From that intention, the actions follow. I don't think defending oneself is contrary to Jesus' teachings. I also think that the idea of 'righteous anger' is an over-used excuse for someone's self-serving anger, and one of the more dangerous religious ideas.
That being said, I believe the reason why Jesus used such strong hyperbole on this issue is to stress the absolute necessity of making every effort possible to achieve peace--internal and external. For too long, I've seen Christians condone war when every effort possible wasn't exhausted first. Or by really stretching the definition of 'self defense' by saying 'our interests' are threatened somewhere, when those 'interests' may be just about anything, not necessarily our survival. Christians really should be the voice of peacemaking, not war. So why aren't there more pacifists is a good question. My guess is that the moment Christianity became linked with Empire, any path toward peacemaking was obscured.
Yeah....and I am not smart enough to make a solid argument for pacifism in all cases. Perhaps...at some point violence had to be used against Nazi Germany in order to stop them after they got going. However, if the German Christians were pacifists...like I believe Jesus was...I think Hitler doesn't get a war.
Hitler claimed that he didn't like Christianity, because it makes people meek and flabby. That other religions made people more war-like. Imagine if he had a nation full of pacifists. No one to invade anywhere.
I think a lot of people speak of pacifism from a place of privilege and hypothetical musings.
You bring up a valid point that pacifism is easier said than done in some extreme situations.
However, Privilege??? I doubt it is such a privilege. Quaker Jeanette Ranking voted against entering WWI and later WWII. She was heavily slandered for both.
As a pacifist, I questioned US foreign drone policy in this thread right here.... as causing us more harm than good....I got accused of hating America, being "limp wristed," and another sent me a private message saying that they confused me with a #@G....
Last year in high school some boys used my pacifist arguments in class to call me insane behind my back online.
Do I really have a privilege in being a pacifist?!?! Perhaps in some ways, but not all ways.
Supporting US military policy and the industrial military complex seems to be mainstream and what is most accepted...that is more socially viable and has more privilege. At least to me it seems that way.
To test pacifist privilege...try running for president as a pacifist that wants to cut military spending to feed the poor versus someone who says we don't spend enough on the military because there are boogeymen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
I have been in multiple war-torn countries and found that if good people stand back, doing nothing, evil prevails. Often times, the best defense is a sound and strong offense. Although, a peacemaker myself, sometimes, it may require that of taking action. But you should always consider the cost. It may require that you lay down your life for that of another.
You as are the other posters in this thread...a good and intelligent person. I fear that a "strong offense" leads to going on offense too often. We've been in Afghanistan for....basically my entire life almost.....do 100% of the locals see us as a "peacemaker" or something less appealing?
Martin Luther King found the best offense was pacifism. He got no attention from the media when he was humanely arrested. He got lots of positive attention when Bull Connor met him with violence and his protest didn't fight back.
Last edited by QuakerBaker; 02-06-2020 at 08:14 PM..
My daughter pressed charges on a girl today and she will go to prison, but she is messed up from my daughter wailng on her and her brother, some places you just have to fight. My daughter didnt know the girl, never spoke to her in her life and the girl started trying to kill my daughter for no reason and this is the second time she was attacked in 6 months, we set there at the police station watching the vids of it, horrifying. When I was in public school, I fought every day, you cant send your kids to public school here anymore, if you want them to live past ten.
I don't see it as " advocating " violence either .
Just presenting the fact that in this blood soaked world of sin we may be required to protect the ones we love in Christ .
That is a far cry from " advocating " violence.
Are you suggesting we stand by in a safe space and watch as loved ones are slaughtered ?
Last edited by mensaguy; 02-07-2020 at 05:21 AM..
Reason: Replaced missing quote tag
I have been in multiple war-torn countries and found that if good people stand back, doing nothing, evil prevails. Often times, the best defense is a sound and strong offense. Although, a peacemaker myself, sometimes, it may require that of taking action. But you should always consider the cost. It may require that you lay down your life for that of another.
I find Jesus was a peacemaker, and Jesus was Not a pacifist (He took sides with God's theocratic kingdom - Daniel 2:44)
Jesus helped convert people by teaching them to be peaceable and his peaceable people teaching others to be peaceable.
Jesus, Not being a pacifist, did take the zealous action two times to chase the money changers out of God's Temple.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
….God cries when we kill each other in his name.
