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Old 02-05-2021, 06:14 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
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This question is for those who are not Universalists, but who believe as I do that the Bible teaches that there are those who will be forever separated from God. Are those who die without ever having heard of Jesus condemned to an existence apart from the presence of God forever?

Until recently I believed the answer was 'yes.' And I based that belief on God's foreknowledge of future events, human volition, and that God steers human history toward positive volition. In other words, God knew that some person, or some community - think of a tribe in deepest, darkest 17th century Africa or the middle of the Amazon rain forest in whatever century, etc. - would when he came to wonder if perhaps some higher power, some divine being, some god, might exist express an interest in knowing about this god. God would then direct human history in such a way as to get a missionary into the area to give the Gospel of Jesus so that they could hear it and either accept it or reject it. I still think that view is plausible, but I am now open to another possibility.

I'm not dogmatic about this but having reflected on it, I now think it is very possible that those who have died without ever hearing of Jesus may be given an opportunity after they die to hear the Gospel so that they can decide. Nothing in the Bible disallows that possibility.

Now, Hebrews 9:27 says - ''And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,''

But judgment can go two ways - guilty or not guilty, for or against. In the case of those who have died without ever having an opportunity to hear the Gospel concerning Jesus, who is to say that they can't be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they leave this life and accept it. Judgment would be favorable toward those who do accept it.

I can't be dogmatic about either of the two views I mentioned but am open to both. Either view in my opinion upholds the justice and integrity of God.

So, for discussion, for those who, as I do, believe that the Bible does teach that there are those who will have an existence in which they are forever separated from God, do you agree or disagree that it is possible that those who die never having heard of Jesus will be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they die?
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
18,975 posts, read 16,808,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
This question is for those who are not Universalists, but who believe as I do that the Bible teaches that there are those who will be forever separated from God. Are those who die without ever having heard of Jesus condemned to an existence apart from the presence of God forever?
But only those who think as you do believe that those who don't follow Jesus are "condemned to an existence apart from the presence of God forever?". If Christianity is observed by a 1/3(roughly) of the world I am sure the other 2/3rds are happy in the believe that their enlightenment with God is ensured through their own faith.

So don't condemn 2/3 of the world because they don't worship the way you do....
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Middle America
10,944 posts, read 6,978,705 times
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If they didn't know or hadn't a chance to hear, God would realize that and factor that in. The same goes with babies, kids, the retarded, etc. They wouldn't be held responsible for something completely beyond them.

I can't believe one could read the Bible and not get that understanding about being merciful and forgiving in those types of situations. That'd be completely:
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VA Yankee View Post
But only those who think as you do believe that those who don't follow Jesus are "condemned to an existence apart from the presence of God forever?". If Christianity is observed by a 1/3(roughly) of the world I am sure the other 2/3rds are happy in the believe that their enlightenment with God is ensured through their own faith.

So don't condemn 2/3 of the world because they don't worship the way you do....
I asked a specific question. Please stay on topic.
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:32 PM
 
4,483 posts, read 1,280,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
This question is for those who are not Universalists, but who believe as I do that the Bible teaches that there are those who will be forever separated from God. Are those who die without ever having heard of Jesus condemned to an existence apart from the presence of God forever?

Until recently I believed the answer was 'yes.' And I based that belief on God's foreknowledge of future events, human volition, and that God steers human history toward positive volition. In other words, God knew that some person, or some community - think of a tribe in deepest, darkest 17th century Africa or the middle of the Amazon rain forest in whatever century, etc. - would when he came to wonder if perhaps some higher power, some divine being, some god, might exist express an interest in knowing about this god. God would then direct human history in such a way as to get a missionary into the area to give the Gospel of Jesus so that they could hear it and either accept it or reject it. I still think that view is plausible, but I am now open to another possibility.

I'm not dogmatic about this but having reflected on it, I now think it is very possible that those who have died without ever hearing of Jesus may be given an opportunity after they die to hear the Gospel so that they can decide. Nothing in the Bible disallows that possibility.

Now, Hebrews 9:27 says - ''And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,''

But judgment can go two ways - guilty or not guilty, for or against. In the case of those who have died without ever having an opportunity to hear the Gospel concerning Jesus, who is to say that they can't be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they leave this life and accept it. Judgment would be favorable toward those who do accept it.

I can't be dogmatic about either of the two views I mentioned but am open to both. Either view in my opinion upholds the justice and integrity of God.

So, for discussion, for those who, as I do, believe that the Bible does teach that there are those who will have an existence in which they are forever separated from God, do you agree or disagree that it is possible that those who die never having heard of Jesus will be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they die?
I would agree with you Michael, if the scripture didn't say "for to him who is joined to the living there is hope." Ecc. 9:4

Now I realize this can fall under the question of interpretation, and you may disagree with me, and that's fine.

I think, my opinion, that Paul explains it in Rom. 2:14-16. That man is judged on what he does with what little knowledge he has. Paul brings the conscience into the picture.
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:35 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
If they didn't know or hadn't a chance to hear, God would realize that and factor that in. The same goes with babies, kids, the retarded, etc. They wouldn't be held responsible for something completely beyond them.

I can't believe one could read the Bible and not get that understanding about being merciful and forgiving in those types of situations. That'd be completely:
I myself have always believed in the so-called 'age of accountability' - that babies, or the severely mentality retarded regardless of age are automatically saved. It would not be just to condemn those who can't even understand the issue because they aren't mentally able to - that salvation is by grace though faith in Christ Jesus.
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Where my bills arrive
18,975 posts, read 16,808,198 times
Reputation: 15332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
I asked a specific question. Please stay on topic.
And I gave a specific answer to your question
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,857 posts, read 29,668,262 times
Reputation: 13043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
This question is for those who are not Universalists, but who believe as I do that the Bible teaches that there are those who will be forever separated from God. Are those who die without ever having heard of Jesus condemned to an existence apart from the presence of God forever?

Until recently I believed the answer was 'yes.' And I based that belief on God's foreknowledge of future events, human volition, and that God steers human history toward positive volition. In other words, God knew that some person, or some community - think of a tribe in deepest, darkest 17th century Africa or the middle of the Amazon rain forest in whatever century, etc. - would when he came to wonder if perhaps some higher power, some divine being, some god, might exist express an interest in knowing about this god. God would then direct human history in such a way as to get a missionary into the area to give the Gospel of Jesus so that they could hear it and either accept it or reject it. I still think that view is plausible, but I am now open to another possibility.

I'm not dogmatic about this but having reflected on it, I now think it is very possible that those who have died without ever hearing of Jesus may be given an opportunity after they die to hear the Gospel so that they can decide. Nothing in the Bible disallows that possibility.

Now, Hebrews 9:27 says - ''And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,''

But judgment can go two ways - guilty or not guilty, for or against. In the case of those who have died without ever having an opportunity to hear the Gospel concerning Jesus, who is to say that they can't be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they leave this life and accept it. Judgment would be favorable toward those who do accept it.

I can't be dogmatic about either of the two views I mentioned but am open to both. Either view in my opinion upholds the justice and integrity of God.

So, for discussion, for those who, as I do, believe that the Bible does teach that there are those who will have an existence in which they are forever separated from God, do you agree or disagree that it is possible that those who die never having heard of Jesus will be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they die?
Well, as you likely know already, Mike, I'm not exactly a universalist, but I'm pretty close to being one. My belief is that, as you have suggested, perhaps people can "be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they leave this life and accept it." I'd go so far as to say this isn't just a possibility but that this is exactly what's going to happen. I believe that by the time we all stand before God to be judged, the vast, vast majority of people will, in fact, have embraced the gospel. I will never be a 100% universalist because the Bible does describe one sin which cannot be forgiven, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Without going into detail as to what I believe constitutes that particular sin, the Bible does appear to leave open the possibility that someone may actually commit it.
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:13 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
Reputation: 16007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24 View Post
I would agree with you Michael, if the scripture didn't say "for to him who is joined to the living there is hope." Ecc. 9:4

Now I realize this can fall under the question of interpretation, and you may disagree with me, and that's fine.

I think, my opinion, that Paul explains it in Rom. 2:14-16. That man is judged on what he does with what little knowledge he has. Paul brings the conscience into the picture.
Can you explain why you think that either of those two passages preclude the possibility of those who die without ever having heard the Gospel being given a chance to hear it after they die?
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:30 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,880 posts, read 26,096,491 times
Reputation: 16007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, as you likely know already, Mike, I'm not exactly a universalist, but I'm pretty close to being one. My belief is that, as you have suggested, perhaps people can "be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they leave this life and accept it." I'd go so far as to say this isn't just a possibility but that this is exactly what's going to happen. I believe that by the time we all stand before God to be judged, the vast, vast majority of people will, in fact, have embraced the gospel. I will never be a 100% universalist because the Bible does describe one sin which cannot be forgiven, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Without going into detail as to what I believe constitutes that particular sin, the Bible does appear to leave open the possibility that someone may actually commit it.
Hi Katz. Yes, I remember you saying that you believe that a person who never heard the Gospel in life would be given a chance to hear the Gospel after they leave this life, and to accept it. And if a person will reflect on that belief, it makes very good sense. Maybe you saying that planted a seed in my own thinking about it.
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