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I reject the notion that God required a sacrifice to appease His wrath. I accept that He expected Jesus to be sacrificed to the wrath and vengeance of our savage and brutal ancestors. Do You actually believe that the scourging and crucifixion were remotely pleasing to God????
No, I don't believe Jesus enjoyed being scourged and crucified - nor do I believe the Father took pleasure in seeing it happen. What was pleasing to God was Christ's sacrificial act.
Christ took on himself the penalty for sin, i.e. suffering and death, and offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father - that's why Christ is described as both Priest and Victim.
Pretty sure we've been over this. Read all of chapter 5 and you'll see it really doesn't say what you're thinking it says.
possibly,
so, you now what training one's senses is, right? somehow all remember well elementary parts of teaching but one that makes one post elementary is not that popular.
I reject the notion that God required a sacrifice to appease His wrath. I accept that He expected Jesus to be sacrificed to the wrath and vengeance of our savage and brutal ancestors. Do You actually believe that the scourging and crucifixion were remotely pleasing to God???? What kind of God do you claim to love??? Don't you see that in your answer you actually refer to Christ's agape love as pleasing God, NOT the sacrifice of His blood to appease God's wrath? Which makes more sense to you as the likely reaction of a loving God who, as Jesus said, IS agape love?
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
No, I don't believe Jesus enjoyed being scourged and crucified - nor do I believe the Father took pleasure in seeing it happen. What was pleasing to God was Christ's sacrificial act.
Christ took on himself the penalty for sin, i.e. suffering and death, and offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father - that's why Christ is described as both Priest and Victim.
What penalty for sin are you talking about? The wages of sin is death and we all die eventually, so that can't be it. So what penalty are you talking about? Do you actually think God is so impotent that He cannot simply forgive us for ANYTHING He wants? You cannot possibly mean the fact that our newly created progenitors disobeyed instructions when they had no way of knowing there would be anything wrong with doing so (No knowledge of Good or Evil)? What penalty????
What penalty for sin are you talking about? The wages of sin is death and we all die eventually, so that can't be it. So what penalty are you talking about?
God became a man and suffered and died in solidarity with every human who ever lived. Yes, death is the penalty for sin, which God in the person of Jesus took upon Himself.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Do you actually think God is so impotent that He cannot simply forgive us for ANYTHING He wants?
Of course God can forgive us. He is very gracious, and DOES forgive us for ANYTHING He wants. He is also merciful and gracious enough to give us the means to hear the words of absolution with our own ears.
As I've said many times before - Christ's sacrifice was not for God's benefit, but for our own. We needed to offer sacrifice to God. God never needed anything from us. We needed redemption. God did not need for us to be redeemed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You cannot possibly mean the fact that our newly created progenitors disobeyed instructions when they had no way of knowing there would be anything wrong with doing so (No knowledge of Good or Evil)? What penalty????
They knew the penalty. See Genesis 2:17. Adam was without excuse.
No, I don't believe Jesus enjoyed being scourged and crucified - nor do I believe the Father took pleasure in seeing it happen. What was pleasing to God was Christ's sacrificial act.
Christ took on himself the penalty for sin, i.e. suffering and death, and offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father - that's why Christ is described as both Priest and Victim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
What penalty for sin are you talking about? The wages of sin is death and we all die eventually, so that can't be it. So what penalty are you talking about? Do you actually think God is so impotent that He cannot simply forgive us for ANYTHING He wants? You cannot possibly mean the fact that our newly created progenitors disobeyed instructions when they had no way of knowing there would be anything wrong with doing so (No knowledge of Good or Evil)? What penalty????
Mystic, you and mike are basically looking at it from totally different perspectives and those can not be compared to each other
Mike is a Roman Catholic and belongs to the body of the church
You are looking at it from your own individual Perspective
Mat 1:21**And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22**Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23**Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24**Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25**And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
A problem happens when you mix the different levels up, or add them together
It creates illogical things like eternal/infinite torment for finite beings
What penalty for sin are you talking about? The wages of sin is death and we all die eventually, so that can't be it. So what penalty are you talking about? Do you actually think God is so impotent that He cannot simply forgive us for ANYTHING He wants? You cannot possibly mean the fact that our newly created progenitors disobeyed instructions when they had no way of knowing there would be anything wrong with doing so (No knowledge of Good or Evil)? What penalty????
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Christ Jesus came to show people One True God not 'Mad God'.
The false church emerged to maintain image of 'Mad God'.
God became a man and suffered and died in solidarity with every human who ever lived. Yes, death is the penalty for sin, which God in the person of Jesus took upon Himself.
Of course God can forgive us. He is very gracious, and DOES forgive us for ANYTHING He wants. He is also merciful and gracious enough to give us the means to hear the words of absolution with our own ears.
As I've said many times before - Christ's sacrifice was not for God's benefit, but for our own. We needed to offer sacrifice to God. God never needed anything from us. We needed redemption. God did not need for us to be redeemed.
They knew the penalty. See Genesis 2:17. Adam was without excuse.
when God modified Adam's CNS at some point Adam understood meaning of impending death of physical body, it not that Adam was deathless, just did not understand what it meant until he became introspective.
God became a man and suffered and died in solidarity with every human who ever lived. Yes, death is the penalty for sin, which God in the person of Jesus took upon Himself.
Then why do we still die????
Quote:
Of course God can forgive us. He is very gracious, and DOES forgive us for ANYTHING He wants. He is also merciful and gracious enough to give us the means to hear the words of absolution with our own ears.
As I've said many times before - Christ's sacrifice was not for God's benefit, but for our own. We needed to offer sacrifice to God. God never needed anything from us. We needed redemption. God did not need for us to be redeemed.
Why did we need to offer sacrifice to God if God didn't need it? Jesus redeemed a promise of God to send us a messenger who would reconcile us savages to God, NOT reconcile God to us.
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They knew the penalty. See Genesis 2:17. Adam was without excuse.
If they did not know Good or Evil (Right or wrong) until AFTER they acted, how could they possibly have known about any penalty.
We still sin. The curse of sin still exists until the consummation.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Why did we need to offer sacrifice to God if God didn't need it? Jesus redeemed a promise of God to send us a messenger who would reconcile us savages to God, NOT reconcile God to us.
Because we're the ones who broke fellowship with God. The burden was on us to repair it. We couldn't do it, only God could. That's why God became a man and did it for us. God was under no obligation to save us, but He did out of His own goodness and mercy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
If they did not know Good or Evil (Right or wrong) until AFTER they acted, how could they possibly have known about any penalty.
God commanded them not to eat the fruit, yet they did. It seems pretty straightforward to me. God told them that if they ate the fruit, they would die.
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