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Old 05-24-2021, 07:28 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,251 posts, read 26,470,212 times
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Second temple period Judaism (516 BC. to AD.70 ) had within it a 'two powers in heaven/two Yahwehs as it were' belief which was by the 2nd century AD declared a heresy because the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah didn't accept him as the second power in heaven and they tried to explain away their own Scriptures which pointed to a second complementary power in heaven. Jewish scholar Alan F. Segal who died in 2011 wrote a book titled Two Powers in Heaven based on an earlier dissertation in which he writes about this 'two powers in heaven' belief from the standpoint of it being a heresy because . . . he was a Jew. But he tries to discover the earliest group to hold the 'two powers' belief.

I want to keep this post as short as I can so I'll present just a few of the Hebrew Scriptures which present 'the word of the LORD/the word of Yahweh' as being Yahweh, and a couple of Scriptures in which the Angel of Yahweh is Yahweh.

Where did John get the idea in the beginning of his Gospel of referring to Jesus as the Word of God who was himself God? He got it from the Hebrew Scriptures. Many times in the Hebrew Scriptures the 'word of the LORD' is simply a reference to something that is heard. But in many cases the 'word of the LORD' is a theophany which is seen and not just heard, and has a physical manifestation.

In Genesis 15:1-5 The word of Yahweh is also called Yahweh and comes to Abram in a vision. A vision is something that is seen, not just heard.

In 1 Samuel 3:1,6,10 the word of Yahweh is also called Yahweh and He comes and stands in front of Samuel. That the word of Yahweh/Yahweh stands in front of Samuel demonstrates a visible theophany.

In Jeremiah 1:4,9 the word of Yahweh who is Yahweh puts out His hand and touches the mouth of Jeremiah. Here again is a visible theophany which manifests physicality since He touches the mouth of Jeremiah.

Those Scriptures show the embodied Word in the Old Testament and that the word of Yahweh and Yahweh are the same. Yet elsewhere, and switching from the description 'the word of Yahweh' to 'the angel of Yahweh,' the word/angel of Yahweh and Yahweh are shown to be distinct from one another.

In Judges 6:11-23 there are two distinct divine beings present with Gideon. The angel of Yahweh comes and sits under the oak and announces to Gideon that Yahweh is with him. Then Yahweh looks at Gideon and Gideon replies to Him. Later in the passage, Gideon prepares an offering (a young goat and unleavened bread) and brings it to Yahweh. The angel of Yahweh puts out the end of his staff and touches the offering which is consumed in fire and then the angel of Yahweh vanishes from Gideon's sight. But Yahweh is still there.

Gideon's reaction is to say to Yahweh, ''Alas, O LORD GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face. But the LORD (Yahweh) reassures him that he will not die.

But wait! In Genesis 48:15-16 where Jacob is blessing Joseph, God and the angel are one and the same.
Genesis 48:15 Then he blessed Joseph and said, "May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day,

16] The Angel who has delivered me from all harm --may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly on the earth."
The Hebrew verb yə·ḇā·rêḵ - 'bless' is 3rd person masculine singular and so God and the angel are understood to be one and the same.

The God
The God
The angel
May He bless . . .


There are other scriptures in which God appears to be referring to God yet He is not referring to Himself but then He is as for example in Amos 4:11 in which the speaker is God yet He refers to God in the 3rd person. He goes from 1st person to 3rd person and then back to 1st person.
Amos 4:11 “I overthrew some of you, as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and you were as a brand plucked out of the burning; yet you did not return to me,” declares the LORD.
Passages such as these make Genesis 19:24 more understandable.
Genesis 19:24 Then YHWH rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from YHWH out of heaven.
Two YHWHs, two powers in heaven. Segal comments on p. 118 of his book Two Powers in Heaven that while Genesis 19:24 does not mention two powers, the context assumes it.

So the first Christians, who were Jews, had the background from their own Hebrew Scriptures for believing Jesus to be God.

And if anyone is interested, this subject is presented in the video below.

Jesus as God: Philo, Rabbi Akiva, the Apocrypha, and the Old Testament Background of this Confession


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIk76EekGM
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Old 05-24-2021, 08:35 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
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Thanks mike, very interesting!
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Old 05-24-2021, 09:14 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,251 posts, read 26,470,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2 View Post
Thanks mike, very interesting!
You are very welcome Meerkat. I'm glad you found it so.

In another passage, Genesis 31:10-13, the angel of God using 1st person language says, ''I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me . . .'' So here, the angel of God and God are one and the same. He is not a created angel speaking on behalf of God, representing God, but states that He Himself is God.

The Hebrew word malak means 'messenger' as well as being able to refer to an 'angel.' The terms 'word of God,' and 'the angel or messenger of God' both in certain passages of the Hebrew Scriptures show a plurality to God which is expanded upon in the New Testament, the New Testament writers having been informed by the Hebrew Scriptures.
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Old 05-24-2021, 09:33 PM
 
63,826 posts, read 40,118,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
You are very welcome Meerkat. I'm glad you found it so.

In another passage, Genesis 31:10-13, the angel of God using 1st person language says, ''I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me . . .'' So here, the angel of God and God are one and the same. He is not a created angel speaking on behalf of God, representing God, but states that He Himself is God.

The Hebrew word malak means 'messenger' as well as being able to refer to an 'angel.' The terms 'word of God,' and 'the angel or messenger of God' both in certain passages of the Hebrew Scriptures show a plurality to God which is expanded upon in the New Testament, the New Testament writers having been informed by the Hebrew Scriptures.
There are even more surprising aspects to the spiritual interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures, Michael. Stay tuned.
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Old 05-25-2021, 03:31 AM
 
9,690 posts, read 10,024,985 times
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In Matthew 27;43 Jesus said ``He trust in God. Let God rescue Him. If He delights in him for He said `I am the Son of God ``................ In John 19;7 `` the Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die because He made himself the Son of God`` ..... As Jesus never denied ..... Jesus also said ``The bind received their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor preached to them`` .... Where everyone who had a righteous miracle through the name of Jesus is proof ................. Then there are the Old Testament prophetic scripture of the identity of the Messiah which follows the path of Jesus
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Old 05-25-2021, 04:15 AM
 
Location: Illinois
3,474 posts, read 1,008,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
Second temple period Judaism (516 BC. to AD.70 ) had within it a 'two powers in heaven/two Yahwehs as it were' belief which was by the 2nd century AD declared a heresy because the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah didn't accept him as the second power in heaven and they tried to explain away their own Scriptures which pointed to a second complementary power in heaven. Jewish scholar Alan F. Segal who died in 2011 wrote a book titled Two Powers in Heaven based on an earlier dissertation in which he writes about this 'two powers in heaven' belief from the standpoint of it being a heresy because . . . he was a Jew. But he tries to discover the earliest group to hold the 'two powers' belief.

I want to keep this post as short as I can so I'll present just a few of the Hebrew Scriptures which present 'the word of the LORD/the word of Yahweh' as being Yahweh, and a couple of Scriptures in which the Angel of Yahweh is Yahweh.

Where did John get the idea in the beginning of his Gospel of referring to Jesus as the Word of God who was himself God? He got it from the Hebrew Scriptures. Many times in the Hebrew Scriptures the 'word of the LORD' is simply a reference to something that is heard. But in many cases the 'word of the LORD' is a theophany which is seen and not just heard, and has a physical manifestation.

In Genesis 15:1-5 The word of Yahweh is also called Yahweh and comes to Abram in a vision. A vision is something that is seen, not just heard.

In 1 Samuel 3:1,6,10 the word of Yahweh is also called Yahweh and He comes and stands in front of Samuel. That the word of Yahweh/Yahweh stands in front of Samuel demonstrates a visible theophany.

In Jeremiah 1:4,9 the word of Yahweh who is Yahweh puts out His hand and touches the mouth of Jeremiah. Here again is a visible theophany which manifests physicality since He touches the mouth of Jeremiah.

Those Scriptures show the embodied Word in the Old Testament and that the word of Yahweh and Yahweh are the same. Yet elsewhere, and switching from the description 'the word of Yahweh' to 'the angel of Yahweh,' the word/angel of Yahweh and Yahweh are shown to be distinct from one another.

In Judges 6:11-23 there are two distinct divine beings present with Gideon. The angel of Yahweh comes and sits under the oak and announces to Gideon that Yahweh is with him. Then Yahweh looks at Gideon and Gideon replies to Him. Later in the passage, Gideon prepares an offering (a young goat and unleavened bread) and brings it to Yahweh. The angel of Yahweh puts out the end of his staff and touches the offering which is consumed in fire and then the angel of Yahweh vanishes from Gideon's sight. But Yahweh is still there.

Gideon's reaction is to say to Yahweh, ''Alas, O LORD GOD! For now I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face. But the LORD (Yahweh) reassures him that he will not die.

But wait! In Genesis 48:15-16 where Jacob is blessing Joseph, God and the angel are one and the same.
Genesis 48:15 Then he blessed Joseph and said, "May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day,

16] The Angel who has delivered me from all harm --may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly on the earth."
The Hebrew verb yə·ḇā·rêḵ - 'bless' is 3rd person masculine singular and so God and the angel are understood to be one and the same.

The God
The God
The angel
May He bless . . .


There are other scriptures in which God appears to be referring to God yet He is not referring to Himself but then He is as for example in Amos 4:11 in which the speaker is God yet He refers to God in the 3rd person. He goes from 1st person to 3rd person and then back to 1st person.
Amos 4:11 “I overthrew some of you, as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and you were as a brand plucked out of the burning; yet you did not return to me,” declares the LORD.
Passages such as these make Genesis 19:24 more understandable.
Genesis 19:24 Then YHWH rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from YHWH out of heaven.
Two YHWHs, two powers in heaven. Segal comments on p. 118 of his book Two Powers in Heaven that while Genesis 19:24 does not mention two powers, the context assumes it.

So the first Christians, who were Jews, had the background from their own Hebrew Scriptures for believing Jesus to be God.

And if anyone is interested, this subject is presented in the video below.

Jesus as God: Philo, Rabbi Akiva, the Apocrypha, and the Old Testament Background of this Confession


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIk76EekGM



It is definitely not a Christian invention Mike, matter of fact I would say quite the opposite.
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Old 05-25-2021, 09:26 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,251 posts, read 26,470,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highway54 View Post
It is definitely not a Christian invention Mike, matter of fact I would say quite the opposite.
Your meaning being what exactly?
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Old 05-27-2021, 10:27 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,251 posts, read 26,470,212 times
Reputation: 16379
I would have thought this would have been a subject of interest to people. The derth of replies seems to indicate otherwise.
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Old 05-27-2021, 11:30 AM
 
Location: TEXAS
3,831 posts, read 1,386,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way View Post
I would have thought this would have been a subject of interest to people. The derth of replies seems to indicate otherwise.
There is already a thread going on the Trinity.
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Old 05-27-2021, 11:34 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,251 posts, read 26,470,212 times
Reputation: 16379
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou View Post
There is already a thread going on the Trinity.
That thread does not address the fact that Jesus being God is based on the Hebrew Scriptures.
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