Another 'Understanding the Bible in its ancient Near East Context' thread: The seat of human consciousness: the kidneys? (purification, myths)
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Ancient Hebrew had no word for the brain and the Old Testament writers knew nothing about the brain's functions. To them, as well as the other ancient Near East peoples, the seat of human consciousness lay in both the physical heart and the kidneys. While we take references to the 'heart' and the 'kidneys' as poetic language, the ancients were being quite literal. There are a number of Old Testament references to both the heart and the kidneys as the sources of human desires and affections.
The Hebrew word for 'kidney' is 'Kilyah' and is used in verses such as Psalm 7:9, 16:7 and 26:2, Jeremiah 11:20 and 17:10, and Proverbs 23:16. Modern English translations generally substitute the word 'mind,' in place of 'kidneys' though some translations use the word 'reins' which is synonymous with 'kidney.'
In Jeremiah 17:10 God says that he searches the heart and tests the kidneys (though English translations use either the word 'mind' or 'reins.')
Jer. 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the Kidneys, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.
Now, does God really try, test, examine the kidneys? No, of course not. But it's what the biblical writers believed. In Psalm 26:2 David asked God to test his heart and kidneys.
Psalm 26:2 Test me, LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my kidneys;
In Proverbs 23:16, Solomon or whoever wrote the Proverbs said that his kidneys would rejoice when your lips speak what is right. Most English translations say something like 'my innermost being' instead of kidneys.
Proverbs 23:16 And my kidneys will rejoice When your lips speak what is right. (or after a good pee. )
So what is the point in pointing this out? The biblical writers didn't know anything about the function of the brain, and God didn't explain it to them. God could have either (1) not let the biblical writers make those statements because they are scientifically inaccurate, or (2) God could have given the biblical writers advanced knowledge about the brain in which case the ancient readers wouldn't have known what the biblical writers were talking about. But God didn't do either one. It wasn't important that the biblical writers made scientifically incorrect statements about the kidneys (or the heart) being the seat of human consciousness and of the desires and affections. They wrote within the framework of what they thought was true. While wrong about the source of human consciousness and the desires and affections, they were correct that God examines the innermost part of man.
The Bible must be understood within its ANE context without allowing our 21st century scientific and cultural preconceptions to intrude upon it.
Last edited by Michael Way; 06-26-2021 at 01:41 PM..
Ancient Hebrew had no word for the brain and the Old Testament writers knew nothing about the brain's functions. To them, as well as the other ancient Near East peoples, the seat of human consciousness lay in both the physical heart and the kidneys. While we take references to the 'heart' and the 'kidneys' as poetic language, the ancients were being quite literal. There are a number of Old Testament references to both the heart and the kidneys as the sources of human desires and affections.
The Hebrew word for 'kidney' is 'Kilyah' and is used in verses such as Psalm 7:9, 16:7 and 26:2, Jeremiah 11:20 and 17:10, and Proverbs 23:16. Modern English translations generally substitute the word 'mind,' in place of 'kidneys' though some translations use the word 'reins' which is synonymous with 'kidney.'
In Jeremiah 17:10 God says that he searches the heart and tests the kidneys (though English translations use either the word 'mind' or 'reins.')
Jer. 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the Kidneys, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.
Now, does God really try, test, examine the kidneys? No, of course not. But it's what the biblical writers believed. In Psalm 26:2 David asked God to test his heart and kidneys.
Psalm 26:2 Test me, LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my kidneys;
In Proverbs 23:16, Solomon or whoever wrote the Proverbs said that his kidneys would rejoice when your lips speak what is right. Most English translations say something like 'my innermost being' instead of kidneys.
Proverbs 23:16 And my kidneys will rejoice When your lips speak what is right. (or after a good pee. )
So what is the point in pointing this out? The biblical writers didn't know anything about the function of the brain, and God didn't explain it to them. God could have either (1) not let the biblical writers make those statements because they are scientifically inaccurate, or (2) God could have given the biblical writers advanced knowledge about the brain in which case the ancient readers wouldn't have known what the biblical writers were talking about. But God didn't do either one. It wasn't important that the biblical writers made scientifically incorrect statements about the kidneys (or the heart) being the seat of human consciousness and of the desires and affections. They wrote within the framework of what they thought was true. While wrong about the source of human consciousness and the desires and affections, they were correct that God examines the innermost part of man.
The Bible must be understood within its ANE context without allowing our 21st century scientific and cultural preconceptions to intrude upon it.
kidneys is organ which human body uses for purification. i'd say it is symbolic of purification.
kidneys is organ which human body uses for purification. i'd say it is symbolic of purification.
The ancient peoples knew nothing about the function of the kidneys just as they knew nothing about the function of the brain. However the belief arose that the kidneys were the seat of human consciousness and the source of desires and affections, it was their belief.
Old Testament scholar John H. Walton writes on the subject at hand;
''For example, in the ancient world people believed that the seat of intelligence, emotion and personhood was in the internal organs, particularly the heart, but also the liver, kidneys and intestines. Many Bible translations use the English word ''mind'' when the Hebrew text refers to the entrails. showing the ways in which language and culture are interrelated. In modern language we still refer to the heart metaphorically as the seat of emotion. In the ancient world this was not metaphor, but physiology. Yet we must notice that when God wanted to talk to the Israelites about their intellect, emotions and will, he did not revise their ideas of physiology and feel compelled to reveal the function of the brain. Instead, he adopted the language of the culture to communicate in terms they understood.''
The Lost World of Genesis One, John H. Walton, p.16.
The ancient peoples knew nothing about the function of the kidneys just as they knew nothing about the function of the brain. However the belief arose that the kidneys were the seat of human consciousness and the source of desires and affections, it was their belief.
what i know, spiritually and even technologically ancients were very advanced, their thinking and values was in a different way than more materialistic ourselves. i would not bet on what they knew or what they not. e.g. Greeks would have terms for a house that good for profit and a house which is good for happy family life and growing flowers.
what i know, spiritually and even technologically ancients were vey advanced, their thinking and values was in a different way than more materialistic ourselves. i would not bet on what they knew or what they not. e.g. Greeks would have terms for a house that good for profit and a house which is good for happy family life and growing flowers.
Greeks didn't write the Hebrew Bible. Ancient Hebrew didn't even have a word for brain. Read my quote of Old Testament scholar John Walton in post 4.
I speak about kidneys, and, i am sure they've seen split skulls and grey matter spilled...
That doesn't change the fact that ancient Hebrew didn't have a word for 'brain' or that the biblical writers didn't know anything about the function of the brain. They did in fact speak of the heart and kidneys as the seat of human consciousness, emotions, desires, etc. And that is the point of this thread, which is that the Bible has to be understood within the framework of its ancient Near East context and not from our 21st century scientific and cultural context.
That doesn't change the fact that ancient Hebrew didn't have a word for 'brain' or that the biblical writers didn't know anything about the function of the brain. They did in fact speak of the heart and kidneys as the seat of human consciousness, emotions, desires, etc. And that is the point of this thread, which is that the Bible has to be understood within the framework of its ancient Near East context and not from our 21st century scientific and cultural context.
hundreds years before Egyptians and other ancients used advanced Embalming. i think we just have no information or do not understand something...
"And Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and he was mighty in his words and deeds."
I do not think we have information.
The Hebrews were intelligent and were not as isolated as we believe them to be
Their focus was not on the literal physical but on the metaphoric, prophetic and how it related to the end of days and to specific times being spoken of which relate to Gods kingdom that they had their own part in preparing
The writings included in the Holy Scriptures are not to be understood at the lower levels, they have been crafted and built up from the other theological, philosophical documents and use the same metaphors, symbols - and have the same way of shrouding it in myths, narratives, parables, histories which are to be used and understood in a particular way
Rom 1:18**For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19**Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20**For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21**Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22**Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23**And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24**Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25**Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
We are a part of the “things” that are created/made that are to use our intellect and understanding for the “higher” and not be overly imaginative and foolish in mixing different types of things up
Last edited by Meerkat2; 06-26-2021 at 04:22 PM..
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