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Not everyone 7, it seems that few here know it, even though it is common sense. Why would God select someone who chooses not to worship Him to reign over the earth? Of course no one ever answers that when I ask.
There you go again, making assumptions that no one else worships Him, except those of your Organization.
This matter has got nothing to do with one's denomination or as to whether one agrees or disagrees. Are the conclusions that we are coming to biblical? If they are then we agree to accept the Bible definition of the state of the dead regardless of the denomination that we belong to. However, that's not the way it works for most. One's loyalty to one's beloved church/denomination and the doctrines held by that beloved denomination are very powerful incentives to ignore or to reject any beliefs of 'outsiders' if they appear to be in conflict with those doctrines ...even if those outsider beliefs just might align with scripture. It's simple psychology. Just pretend they're not there. Even more than that. Most Christians - and possibly most people generally - believe that their beloved dead are presently in Heaven. That's also powerful. No one should attempt to shatter such a comforting belief. And, if they do ...then woe betide! By the way, you (a general 'you') will notice that no one's beloved dead are EVER in hell! That's especially odd because most of these very same people really DO believe in hell.
I've attempted to make a case for what I believe the scriptures to say about the state of the dead - in response to the thread title! - by actually presenting a few of many scriptures that back it up. However, if you check the posts of others, it's as though these scriptures don't exist. Has anyone actually attempted to offer a counter explanation for these scriptures that refer to death as sleep? Nope. All I've managed to do is to have created an atmosphere of hostility or, at best, mistrust toward me. Not that I can't handle that. I'm just stating a fact. I'm my own man.
As I've questioned before ...does it even matter if the dead are resting in their graves until resurrection day or presently in heaven practicing their harp ...or, um, in hell shoveling coal to keep the eternal fire burning? Debating the topic does seem rather pointless. However, someone DID ask the question. And so, I contend that if one must have a belief in something then it might be a sound idea to base it on truth. I personally don't know for certain that ANY of the Bible is true. But, for the sake of argument I'm counting on at least some of the major parts of the Bible to be so.
my reading of Biblical and extra biblical materials does not support dead in tomb notion. even if you are correct it changes nothing...i agree to disagree - it is a procedure whatever it is it is, something that I can not change.
"He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”
This matter has got nothing to do with one's denomination or as to whether one agrees or disagrees. Are the conclusions that we are coming to biblical? If they are then we agree to accept the Bible definition of the state of the dead regardless of the denomination that we belong to. However, that's not the way it works for most. One's loyalty to one's beloved church/denomination and the doctrines held by that beloved denomination are very powerful incentives to ignore or to reject any beliefs of 'outsiders' if they appear to be in conflict with those doctrines ...even if those outsider beliefs just might align with scripture. It's simple psychology. Just pretend they're not there. Even more than that. Most Christians - and possibly most people generally - believe that their beloved dead are presently in Heaven. That's also powerful. No one should attempt to shatter such a comforting belief. And, if they do ...then woe betide! By the way, you (a general 'you') will notice that no one's beloved dead are EVER in hell! That's especially odd because most of these very same people really DO believe in hell.
I've attempted to make a case for what I believe the scriptures to say about the state of the dead - in response to the thread title! - by actually presenting a few of many scriptures that back it up. However, if you check the posts of others, it's as though these scriptures don't exist. Has anyone actually attempted to offer a counter explanation for these scriptures that refer to death as sleep? Nope. All I've managed to do is to have created an atmosphere of hostility or, at best, mistrust toward me. Not that I can't handle that. I'm just stating a fact. I'm my own man.
As I've questioned before ...does it even matter if the dead are resting in their graves until resurrection day or presently in heaven practicing their harp ...or, um, in hell shoveling coal to keep the eternal fire burning? Debating the topic does seem rather pointless. However, someone DID ask the question. And so, I contend that if one must have a belief in something then it might be a sound idea to base it on truth. I personally don't know for certain that ANY of the Bible is true. But, for the sake of argument I'm counting on at least some of the major parts of the Bible to be so.
I have explained this but it seems to be over the heads of most here. We are NEVER actually in this physical body because we are Spirit (consciousness) which is an undifferentiated quantum state known as a BEC that actually resides as a "bubble" in the spacetime field (quantum foam). What we experience as our consciousness is a delayed playback of its creation at the quantum level that manifests at the macro-level. Our delayed consciousness connects our actual Self to the body only by the synaptic activity of the brain.
When we sleep, the connection to the body is severed and restorative synaptic activity to rebalance the brain occurs. So when in sleep we actually do reside where we will ultimately reside upon our death. The difference is that death is a "birth event" severing the umbilical connection permanently to this macro-level of existence to reside permanently in the quantum state as Spirit.
This matter has got nothing to do with one's denomination or as to whether one agrees or disagrees. Are the conclusions that we are coming to biblical? If they are then we agree to accept the Bible definition of the state of the dead regardless of the denomination that we belong to. However, that's not the way it works for most. One's loyalty to one's beloved church/denomination and the doctrines held by that beloved denomination are very powerful incentives to ignore or to reject any beliefs of 'outsiders' if they appear to be in conflict with those doctrines ...even if those outsider beliefs just might align with scripture. It's simple psychology. Just pretend they're not there. Even more than that. Most Christians - and possibly most people generally - believe that their beloved dead are presently in Heaven. That's also powerful. No one should attempt to shatter such a comforting belief. And, if they do ...then woe betide! By the way, you (a general 'you') will notice that no one's beloved dead are EVER in hell! That's especially odd because most of these very same people really DO believe in hell.
I've attempted to make a case for what I believe the scriptures to say about the state of the dead - in response to the thread title! - by actually presenting a few of many scriptures that back it up. However, if you check the posts of others, it's as though these scriptures don't exist. Has anyone actually attempted to offer a counter explanation for these scriptures that refer to death as sleep? Nope. All I've managed to do is to have created an atmosphere of hostility or, at best, mistrust toward me. Not that I can't handle that. I'm just stating a fact. I'm my own man.
As I've questioned before ...does it even matter if the dead are resting in their graves until resurrection day or presently in heaven practicing their harp ...or, um, in hell shoveling coal to keep the eternal fire burning? Debating the topic does seem rather pointless. However, someone DID ask the question. And so, I contend that if one must have a belief in something then it might be a sound idea to base it on truth. I personally don't know for certain that ANY of the Bible is true. But, for the sake of argument I'm counting on at least some of the major parts of the Bible to be so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Duval
my reading of Biblical and extra biblical materials does not support dead in tomb notion. even if you are correct it changes nothing...i agree to disagree - it is a procedure whatever it is it is, something that I can not change.
"He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong.”
The first bolded. Precisely. It's the extra biblical materials, i.e. man-made doctrines, that have led the majority of Christians into blind acceptance of them. Your second bolded confirms this. You don't care for truth, even if, as you say, it is clearly the truth. What??
That said, it isn't even MY truth that I'm presenting here. All I have done while participating in this thread is to quote consistent scripture on the topic. Yet, all I've heard from most others is a denial, not of me, but of scripture. Not one of you has had the gumption to even take on those scriptures and refute them with scripture. Most posts are little more than drive-by responses that say:
"YOU are wrong (I'M wrong? I'm just quoting scripture!) and THIS is what "I" have to say on the topic . . ." And so continues the unbiblical diatribe coupled with insults toward me as well as dismissal of the scriptures I present from supposed Bible-believing Christians.
The "this is what MY church teaches" approach might be good enough for most others but it's not good enough for me, folks! We live in a world where we're persistently fed crap upon crap upon crap on a daily basis. I expect better from the guy behind the pulpit!
I have explained this but it seems to be over the heads of most here. We are NEVER actually in this physical body because we are Spirit (consciousness) which is an undifferentiated quantum state known as a BEC that actually resides as a "bubble" in the spacetime field (quantum foam). What we experience as our consciousness is a delayed playback of its creation at the quantum level that manifests at the macro-level. Our delayed consciousness connects our actual Self to the body only by the synaptic activity of the brain.
When we sleep, the connection to the body is severed and restorative synaptic activity to rebalance the brain occurs. So when in sleep we actually do reside where we will ultimately reside upon our death. The difference is that death is a "birth event" severing the umbilical connection permanently to this macro-level of existence to reside permanently in the quantum state as Spirit.
That's ridiculous. At least try to show some humility by admitting that that is YOUR opinion and stop presenting it as fact that only you have the capability to understand. You've already admitted that science doesn't know what consciousness is. But you somehow do.
That's ridiculous. At least try to show some humility by admitting that that is YOUR opinion and stop presenting it as fact that only you have the capability to understand. You've already admitted that science doesn't know what consciousness is. But you somehow do.
I do know quite a bit about it, Michael, and science is moving in the direction of the very things I have hypothesized about the actual nature of our Reality. I am confident that in the future my hypotheses will be validated. However, I will probably personally learn the truth or falsity of them before that.
Since it seems that most every present-day Christian loves to hang on to every word of Paul, here is a scripture from Paul that is consistent with THE REST OF THE BIBLE regarding both the state of the dead AND the resurrection of the dead on the last day. NOT my opinion but scripture. Here it is uncensored but bolded by me where I feel necessary:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Okay, I'm sure that you will find the above passage of scripture in your own Bibles, folks. What Paul is acknowledging here is that:
1, the dead are presently 'sleeping' (<sigh> don't panic, folks, it's just a metaphor) awaiting resurrection.
2. those who died with a belief in Jesus will be marched into Heaven led by Jesus.
3. speaks for itself
4/5/6. those who are asleep (the dead) will be raised from their graves and 'meet with Jesus in the air' first. Then, those that are still living who are 'in Christ' at Jesus' return will also join the former dead (those who were 'asleep') in the air.
7. Speaks for itself.
Now, if previous experience dictates, I'm about to have insults thrown at me because those verses, they will say, really don't mean what they say and that I, in my ignorance, have been bamboozled into believing them. However, as I'm becoming more and more thick-skinned as I age I'm willing to take the risk when I ask: If the above passage of scripture - as said, CONSISTENT with every other scripture that refers to the state of the dead - doesn't agree with what I've presented over and over on this thread from day one ...then by all means COUNTER this description of the state of the dead with scripture - and not opinions or the tenets of your particular church - that DENIES this!
Here are a couple more scriptures that are open to challenge by the 'the righteous dead don't sleep and are already in heaven' (or, um, hell) proponents:
John 5:28; Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice.
This ^ is clearly talking about resurrection day. You will notice that the dead are still in their graves awaiting the trumpet call and the voice of Jesus telling them to "Come forth".
1 Corinthians 15: 51-55; Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Those who are dead are said to be sleeping ...no ifs, ands or buts. However, there will, obviously, be people who are alive at the coming of Christ.
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Time for the dead to be raised and reunited with their 'spirit', folks! Both the former righteous dead and the present righteous living WILL THEN receive immortality.
Since it seems that most every present-day Christian loves to hang on to every word of Paul, here is a scripture from Paul that is consistent with THE REST OF THE BIBLE regarding both the state of the dead AND the resurrection of the dead on the last day. NOT my opinion but scripture. Here it is uncensored but bolded by me where I feel necessary:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Okay, I'm sure that you will find the above passage of scripture in your own Bibles, folks. What Paul is acknowledging here is that:
1, the dead are presently 'sleeping' (<sigh> don't panic, folks, it's just a metaphor) awaiting resurrection.
2. those who died with a belief in Jesus will be marched into Heaven led by Jesus.
3. speaks for itself
4/5/6. those who are asleep (the dead) will be raised from their graves and 'meet with Jesus in the air' first. Then, those that are still living who are 'in Christ' at Jesus' return will also join the former dead (those who were 'asleep') in the air.
7. Speaks for itself.
Now, if previous experience dictates, I'm about to have insults thrown at me because those verses, they will say, really don't mean what they say and that I, in my ignorance, have been bamboozled into believing them. However, as I'm becoming more and more thick-skinned as I age I'm willing to take the risk when I ask: If the above passage of scripture - as said, CONSISTENT with every other scripture that refers to the state of the dead - doesn't agree with what I've presented over and over on this thread from day one ...then by all means COUNTER this description of the state of the dead with scripture - and not opinions or the tenets of your particular church - that DENIES this!
Please.
Oh, bull crap. Paul stated that to be absent from the body was to be at home with the Lord. According to Paul, he knew (actually, he said 'we' know) that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. He then said that we are confident and prefer to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6,8).
The Lord is not in a grave. The Lord is in heaven and according to Paul we have confidence that and prefer to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7] for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8] We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Resurrection is the state of being AFTER the intermediate state of the believer in heaven.
You are the one who ignores the passages which refute your view. You are the one who cherries picks the verses which you wrongly think support your claim. Paul stated quite clearly in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 that the believer goes to be with the Lord when he leaves his body behind in physical death.
We ....would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord?
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