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The first bolded. Precisely. It's the extra biblical materials, i.e. man-made doctrines, that have led the majority of Christians into blind acceptance of them. Your second bolded confirms this. You don't care for truth, even if, as you say, it is clearly the truth. What??
That said, it isn't even MY truth that I'm presenting here. All I have done while participating in this thread is to quote consistent scripture on the topic. Yet, all I've heard from most others is a denial, not of me, but of scripture. Not one of you has had the gumption to even take on those scriptures and refute them with scripture. Most posts are little more than drive-by responses that say:
"YOU are wrong (I'M wrong? I'm just quoting scripture!) and THIS is what "I" have to say on the topic . . ." And so continues the unbiblical diatribe coupled with insults toward me as well as dismissal of the scriptures I present from supposed Bible-believing Christians.
The "this is what MY church teaches" approach might be good enough for most others but it's not good enough for me, folks! We live in a world where we're persistently fed crap upon crap upon crap on a daily basis. I expect better from the guy behind the pulpit!
Good post, most people dont care about truth and that is seriously confusing me. If somebody really believes the bible is the word of God, opinions and beliefs should not matter, your belief should be formed from the truth instead of people putting their belief above the truth. You would think that people would be honest with themselves about what is written. The afterlife and your soul should not be compromised when the truth goes against your belief.
Is it pride or what?
I cant figure out how so many are so willing to lie to themselves.
Are you absolutely sure that you want to refer to the above scriptures from Paul as 'bull crap', Michael? It IS the scriptures to which you're aiming that retort and not at me. "I" didn't write them. Paul did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Paul stated that to be absent from the body was to be at home with the Lord. According to Paul, he knew (actually, he said 'we' know) that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. He then said that we are confident and prefer to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6,8).
Well, maybe you need to don your 'logic cap' and ask yourself, "Am I misunderstanding that one particular cherry-picked verse since it really does appear to contradict not only the rest of the Bible but it also contradicts the common view that Paul holds pertaining to the state of the dead?
Hmmm . . .perhaps I need to study that scripture beyond simply reading the words."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
The Lord is not in a grave. The Lord is in heaven and according to Paul we have confidence that and prefer to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7] for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8] We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Yes, I'm well aware of the verse. What you believe that verse to mean doesn't tally with what Paul meant based on his common understanding of the state of the dead. Paul is not always easy to understand and his words often need to be read carefully since they can be misapplied (2 Peter 3) just as they are being misapplied here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Resurrection is the state of being AFTER the intermediate state of the believer in heaven.
The Gospel according to Michael, eh? There is only ONE resurrection of 'the righteous community' and that is at the end of time when Jesus returns to 'harvest' His people ...both the dead and the alive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
You are the one who ignores the passages which refute your view.
It's difficult to believe that there are others on this thread who can't wait to give you accolades, Michael. But, they do so because you encourage them with the same erroneous beliefs of their beloved denomination. I'm hearing nothing biblical from you other than a cherry-picked verse from Paul that is counter to every other biblical reference - including those of Paul - that pertain to the state of the dead. You didn't even acknowledge the verses I gave above. As I predicted, you act as if they don't even exist.
Yes, I know, who really cares about who goes where or what they do once they're there? I mean, the sky won't fall and we'll probably live to see another sunrise tomorrow. But, why not stick to Bible truths simply for the sake of sticking to Bible truths? This is what I would rather do anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
You are the one who cherries picks the verses which you wrongly think support your claim. Paul stated quite clearly in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 that the believer goes to be with the Lord when he leaves his body behind in physical death.
That's all you've got and you're sticking with it, eh, Michael? Well, here are a couple more passages of scripture:
Philippians 3:20-21: For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
This ^ refers to the resurrection when immortality will be realized. 'Waiting for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, is what the author is eagerly awaiting.
2 Timothy 4:8; “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.â€
"That day" refers to Resurrection Day when Jesus returns to awake the dead and gather up the living.
And, once again:
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Are you absolutely sure that you want to refer to the above scriptures from Paul as 'bull crap', Michael? It IS the scriptures to which you're aiming that retort and not at me. "I" didn't write them. Paul did.
I'm saying that YOU are full of bullcrap.
Quote:
[color="Navy"]Well, maybe you need to don your 'logic cap' and ask yourself, "Am I misunderstanding that one particular cherry-picked verse since it really does appear to contradict not only the rest of the Bible but it also contradicts the common view that Paul holds pertaining to the state of the dead?
You are a hypocrite. You accuse others of cherry picking when you do the same thing of which you accuse others.
There is no ambiguity in Paul's statement 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Paul stated that he was confident and preferred to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.
If you don't know the meaning of 'confidence', look it up.
The first bolded. Precisely. It's the extra biblical materials, i.e. man-made doctrines, that have led the majority of Christians into blind acceptance of them. Your second bolded confirms this. You don't care for truth, even if, as you say, it is clearly the truth. What??
That said, it isn't even MY truth that I'm presenting here. All I have done while participating in this thread is to quote consistent scripture on the topic. Yet, all I've heard from most others is a denial, not of me, but of scripture. Not one of you has had the gumption to even take on those scriptures and refute them with scripture. Most posts are little more than drive-by responses that say:
"YOU are wrong (I'M wrong? I'm just quoting scripture!) and THIS is what "I" have to say on the topic . . ." And so continues the unbiblical diatribe coupled with insults toward me as well as dismissal of the scriptures I present from supposed Bible-believing Christians.
The "this is what MY church teaches" approach might be good enough for most others but it's not good enough for me, folks! We live in a world where we're persistently fed crap upon crap upon crap on a daily basis. I expect better from the guy behind the pulpit!
not exactly, what I said. First was biblical then extra biblical. History of canon is not not pure as wind blown snow...that is why we need "spirit and truth" and intuition.
No, didn't miss that, however it appears to be something that is hoped for, not absolute.
I take Paul saying that he was both confident that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and that he preferred to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord as not having any doubts about going to heaven when he died. After all, Paul had once been taken up to heaven in a vision and heard (and saw) things which he wasn't permitted to speak of.
I take Paul saying that he was both confident that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and that he preferred to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord as not having any doubts about going to heaven when he died. After all, Paul had once been taken up to heaven in a vision and heard (and saw) things which he wasn't permitted to speak of.
But, maybe that's just me.
that and 17“When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance ..."
and 23"When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him, 24but their plot became known to Saul."
and a few other places make me think that Paul was able of OBE at will very high level of spiritual training of the Master Builder. Paul was a very unique individual.
No, didn't miss that, however it appears to be something that is hoped for, not absolute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
I take Paul saying that he was both confident that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and that he preferred to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord as not having any doubts about going to heaven when he died. After all, Paul had once been taken up to heaven in a vision and heard (and saw) things which he wasn't permitted to speak of.
But, maybe that's just me.
I don't see that as relating to Paul, rather John who says that he was in the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I do not know, or out of the body, I do not know; only God knows, such a man, having been caught up to the third heaven.
In either case it was a vision. Neither died and went to heaven.
I take Paul saying that he was both confident that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and that he preferred to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord as not having any doubts about going to heaven when he died. After all, Paul had once been taken up to heaven in a vision and heard (and saw) things which he wasn't permitted to speak of.
But, maybe that's just me.
You can't speak of things that most people cant get.
Isaiah
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Christian's dont even study the ways of God, you cant explain something to another person if they dont even know the foundation of what is to be learned, and nobody can tell them.
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