Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't see that as relating to Paul, rather John who says that he was in the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I do not know, or out of the body, I do not know; only God knows, such a man, having been caught up to the third heaven.
In either case it was a vision. Neither died and went to heaven.
It couldn't have been a reference to John since Paul died before John had his vision. And John was not prohibited from revealing what he saw, but was told to write what he saw. Paul said that he (himself) was not allowed to speak of what he saw.
If Paul wasn't referring himself then why was he given a thorn in the flesh to keep him from exalting himself because of the revelations as per 2 Cor. 12:7?
But speaking of John, John saw people in heaven and wrote about it in Revelation chapters 6 and 7.
I don't see that as relating to Paul, rather John who says that he was in the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I do not know, or out of the body, I do not know; only God knows, such a man, having been caught up to the third heaven.
In either case it was a vision. Neither died and went to heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
It couldn't have been a reference to John since Paul died before John had his vision. And John was not prohibited from revealing what he saw, but was told to write what he saw. Paul said that he (himself) was not allowed to speak of what he saw.
If Paul wasn't referring himself then why was he given a thorn in the flesh to keep him from exalting himself because of the revelations as per 2 Cor. 12:7?
But speaking of John, John saw people in heaven and wrote about it in Revelation chapters 6 and 7.
When did he have the vision, and when did he write about it? I usually don't write about something that just happened? Perhaps, John told him not to reveal anything that he said at that point in time (fourteen years earlier)? Have you ever conveyed anything to that of another in confidence? Why did Paul take delight in his weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. It's unfortunate that many believe or have been taught that they must suffer, which I do not believe is true. What is heaven is altogether another question as these appear to be visions.
When did he have the vision, and when did he write about it? I usually don't write about something that just happened? Perhaps, John told him not to reveal anything that he said at that point in time (fourteen years earlier)? Have you ever conveyed anything to that of another in confidence? Why did Paul take delight in his weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. It's unfortunate that many believe or have been taught that they must suffer, which I do not believe is true. What is heaven is altogether another question as these appear to be visions.
Tradition has it that John had his vision while on the island of Patmos. Most scholars believe that Revelation was written c. AD. 96.
Aside from that, Paul said that he, not John, but he himself was given a thorn in the flesh to keep him from exalting himself. There is no reason to doubt that Paul was referring to himself as the one who had the vision. But believe what you want.
When did he have the vision, and when did he write about it? I usually don't write about something that just happened? Perhaps, John told him not to reveal anything that he said at that point in time (fourteen years earlier)? Have you ever conveyed anything to that of another in confidence? Why did Paul take delight in his weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. It's unfortunate that many believe or have been taught that they must suffer, which I do not believe is true. What is heaven is altogether another question as these appear to be visions.
He does say he was changing topic to revelations and visions
The preceding verses had to do with this
2Co 11:31**The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
2Co 11:32**In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
2Co 11:33**And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
Which had to do with false apostles coming in and leading the chaste “bride, virgin” astray, which has to do with the church
2Co 11:2**For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3**But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4**For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I believe the problem is misunderstanding the timing and context inherent in the Holy Scriptures, always taking it back to the literal and individual
When did he have the vision, and when did he write about it? I usually don't write about something that just happened? Perhaps, John told him not to reveal anything that he said at that point in time (fourteen years earlier)? Have you ever conveyed anything to that of another in confidence? Why did Paul take delight in his weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. It's unfortunate that many believe or have been taught that they must suffer, which I do not believe is true. What is heaven is altogether another question as these appear to be visions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Tradition has it that John had his vision while on the island of Patmos. Most scholars believe that Revelation was written c. AD. 96.
Aside from that, Paul said that he, not John, but he himself was given a thorn in the flesh to keep him from exalting himself. There is no reason to doubt that Paul was referring to himself as the one who had the vision. But believe what you want.
If I mistreated or condemned people in the past, it would be like a thorn in my side. And a constant reminder of my failings. Especially, if it caused people injury or harm. We all believe, whatever it is we believe; until, we no longer believe it - for whatever reason.
He does say he was changing topic to revelations and visions
The preceding verses had to do with this
2Co 11:31**The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
2Co 11:32**In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
2Co 11:33**And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
Which had to do with false apostles coming in and leading the chaste “bride, virgin” astray, which has to do with the church
2Co 11:2**For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3**But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4**For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I believe the problem is misunderstanding the timing and context inherent in the Holy Scriptures, always taking it back to the literal and individual
But what caused him to change the topic - was it the thorn in his side - because of all those he previously persecuted?
I don't doubt that I have my moments of being full of BS, Michael. However, what I presented to you was not one of those moments. I've so far offered a number of scriptures that have ESTABLISHED - as in they tell us from the very beginning and consistently affirm - what happens to a person when they die. You DID ask the question, Michael. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. AND, the only source that we can go to for an answer to your question is the Bible. I'm here to speak from that source because "I" don't know what happens at death since I haven't yet had a personal experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
You are a hypocrite. You accuse others of cherry picking when you do the same thing of which you accuse others.
Are you sure you know what 'cherry picking scripture' means, Michael? Presenting a number of scriptures taken from a total of around 66 references to the state of the dead is HARDLY cherry-picking. HOWEVER, presenting ONE scripture that you don't understand the meaning of anyway merely to support your belief IS cherry-picking. Now do you understand the REAL meaning of cherry-picking?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
There is no ambiguity in Paul's statement 2 Corinthians 5:6-8. Paul stated that he was confident and preferred to be absent from the body and at home with the Lord.
The 'mistake' is not Paul's. Paul knew - as is APPARENT from the scriptures of his that I've presented - what happens at death. Paul KNEW that he would die. Paul KNEW that he would 'sleep' in the grave until the coming of Jesus. Paul KNEW that he would be resurrected on the last day and be given an immortal body. YOU have not addressed ANY of those scriptures I've presented that affirm what Paul KNEW. Your only response is "you're a hypocrite", "you cherry-pick scripture", "you have no clue about scripture", etc. This is not the responses I would expect from you. What I would expect from you is that you respond to the scriptures that CLEARLY and CONSISTENTLY describe - even if metaphorically - the state of the dead.
I realize, Michael, that you and others may have your/their feathers ruffled because THE TRUTH from scripture pertaining to this particular topic is contrary to the teaching of much of mainstream Christianity that they've believed all of their lives. However, I can't help that. I didn't write scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
If you don't know the meaning of 'confidence', look it up.
But what caused him to change the topic - was it the thorn in his side - because of all those he previously persecuted?
The writings of Paul are a named collection of writings- I think it’s incorrect to try to understand them as literal, sequencial, historical - I believe they are more prophetic in nature
The thorn in his flesh would relate to the thorns and briars that Adam was to toil amongst after he was banished from the “garden”
Gen 3:16**Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17**And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18**Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19**In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 3:20**And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
Gen 3:21**Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Gen 3:22**And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
I think your interpretation of him referencing John seems correct about the man having visions and revelations
Paul (and Peter) were institutional in setting up the church
And John was separate from that
Lots of metaphors and allegory in all of the Scriptures
I don't doubt that I have my moments of being full of BS, Michael. However, what I presented to you was not one of those moments. I've so far offered a number of scriptures that have ESTABLISHED - as in they tell us from the very beginning and consistently affirm - what happens to a person when they die. You DID ask the question, Michael. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. AND, the only source that we can go to for an answer to your question is the Bible. I'm here to speak from that source because "I" don't know what happens at death since I haven't yet had a personal experience.
Are you sure you know what 'cherry picking scripture' means, Michael? Presenting a number of scriptures taken from a total of around 66 references to the state of the dead is HARDLY cherry-picking. HOWEVER, presenting ONE scripture that you don't understand the meaning of anyway merely to support your belief IS cherry-picking. Now do you understand the REAL meaning of cherry-picking?
The 'mistake' is not Paul's. Paul knew - as is APPARENT from the scriptures of his that I've presented - what happens at death. Paul KNEW that he would die. Paul KNEW that he would 'sleep' in the grave until the coming of Jesus. Paul KNEW that he would be resurrected on the last day and be given an immortal body. YOU have not addressed ANY of those scriptures I've presented that affirm what Paul KNEW. Your only response is "you're a hypocrite", "you cherry-pick scripture", "you have no clue about scripture", etc. This is not the responses I would expect from you. What I would expect from you is that you respond to the scriptures that CLEARLY and CONSISTENTLY describe - even if metaphorically - the state of the dead.
I realize, Michael, that you and others may have your/their feathers ruffled because THE TRUTH from scripture pertaining to this particular topic is contrary to the teaching of much of mainstream Christianity that they've believed all of their lives. However, I can't help that. I didn't write scripture.
Thanks Michael, I will.
I don't know what your game is, what your agenda is, but you don't know what you're talking about. The Bible does not teach soul sleep or the non-existence of the soul. Period. And no one claimed that Paul made a mistake. Paul knew that he would go to heaven and be with the Lord when he died, and he clearly said so.
Without another word from me lest I be accused of being full of bull-crap here are words from the Bible that address the thread question. There are many more but here are a few:
John 5:28; Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice.
1 Corinthians 15: 51-55; Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/i]
[u]55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Philippians 3:20-21: For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
2 Timothy 4:8; “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Please discuss the above scriptures and leave ME out of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
I don't know what your game is, what your agenda is, but you don't know what you're talking about. The Bible does not teach soul sleep or the non-existence of the soul. Period. And no one claimed that Paul made a mistake. Paul knew that he would go to heaven and be with the Lord when he died, and he clearly said so.
I realize that there are any number of people who will side with you on this Michael because they're as brainwashed by their cherished denominations as you are. That said, "I" have no game. "I" only know what the Bible has to say regarding the answer to your thread question. "I" never said that Paul made a mistake. "I" said that YOU were the one who has made the mistake. Yes, "I" agree ...Paul DID believe that he would go to heaven and be with the Lord when he died. HOWEVER, as Paul clearly tells us, this would NOT BE until the resurrection of the dead at Jesus' return. This voluntary blindness of you and yours that you cannot see those many scriptures that CLEARLY answer the question you asked is quite telling. How much more 'in your face' can these texts be? Moreover, it's me who comes out of this as the bad guy merely for having presented 'Bible facts' that "I" had nothing to do with.
It pains me to say this but I'm almost believing at least some of the stuff that Hanni has to say about 'the state of present-day Christianity'.
Last edited by RomulusXXV; 07-09-2021 at 09:10 PM..
Reason: Additional inclusion of Michael Way's post
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
