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There's no 'IF' about it. The Mosaic law does prohibit attempts to contact the dead as stated in Deuteronomy 18:10-11(snip)
All believers go to heaven when they die. Paul stated that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. So any scholar who says that there is no basis in the Bible for an afterlife is wrong. It really is just that simple.
And don't try to tell me about context. I know about context.
Oh. . .I'm not ordinary either.
Mike you missed the point of Deuteronomy. It's prohibited to contact the dead because one is actually not contacting a dead loved one. Period.
Paul also wrote that some Christians had fallen asleep in death (hmmm nothing here about an afterlife)
"After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death."-1 Corinthians 15:6
In line with what Jesus likened death to be
" After he said these things, he added: “Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazarus has died...." John 11:11-14
and then when Stephen was stoned to death:
"And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."-Acts 7:60
No after life. But the hope is in the resurrection with some resurrected to heaven but the majority resurrected to an earth free of illness, disease, hunger, crime etc.
Mike you missed the point of Deuteronomy. It's prohibited to contact the dead because one is actually not contacting a dead loved one. Period.
Paul also wrote that some Christians had fallen asleep in death (hmmm nothing here about an afterlife)
"After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death."-1 Corinthians 15:6
In line with what Jesus likened death to be
" After he said these things, he added: “Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazarus has died...." John 11:11-14
and then when Stephen was stoned to death:
"And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."-Acts 7:60
No after life. But the hope is in the resurrection with some resurrected to heaven but the majority resurrected to an earth free of illness, disease, hunger, crime etc.
No, I didn't miss the point of Deuteronomy. 1 Samuel chapter 28 has Saul contact the dead prophet Samuel who was in Sheol. The account is being presented as an actual occurrence in which Samuel was actually contacted. Not some demon impersonating Samuel.
Falling asleep is simply a metaphorical way of referring to a person's physical death and says nothing about the state of the soul after it has departed from the body. Matthew 10:28 says that while man can kill the body he cannot kill the soul. This means that the soul survives the death of the body.
And again, Paul said to be absent from the body is to be at home with the lord. The book of Revelation shows people in heaven.
Mike you missed the point of Deuteronomy. It's prohibited to contact the dead because one is actually not contacting a dead loved one. Period.
Paul also wrote that some Christians had fallen asleep in death (hmmm nothing here about an afterlife)
"After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom are still with us, though some have fallen asleep in death."-1 Corinthians 15:6
In line with what Jesus likened death to be
" After he said these things, he added: “Lazarus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazarus has died...." John 11:11-14
and then when Stephen was stoned to death:
"And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."-Acts 7:60
No after life. But the hope is in the resurrection with some resurrected to heaven but the majority resurrected to an earth free of illness, disease, hunger, crime etc.
That is the after-life though on the societal level
The Scriptures are not about the literal (or individual) then, they are prophetic about what will be fulfilled over specific periods of times, generational
And we are told in Daniel that those times and laws are not understood (as they “those that are produced by the 4th beastly kingdom” think to change them)
Dan 7:23**Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24**And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25**And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26**But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
I believe we need to separate what pertains to the individual from the societal and not mix/confuse the 2 together
What many religions, including Christianity have done is create in their own minds the thought of remaining who they are presently; and that only the body is resurrected to life, while the soul is held in some kind of waiting or holding tank, pending the resurrection of the body. Which is coupled with the ideology of judgment (i.e., heaven or hell as a destiny based on the human perception of duality). I don’t believe in the judgments and damnation theologies of (extreme) fundamentalists or religion, nor that of when a person dies - they go to a hell of sorts – where souls are kept alive. What I believe is that everything is energy, which can neither be created nor destroyed, rather it merely transforms and upon our death the energy is released, returning back from whence it came.
What that exactly entails is unknown and subject to speculation or a set of beliefs. However, it may be like a water drop that returns to the ocean or the consciousness of that which brought all thing into existence. Perhaps, releasing all of our experiences within this conscious field, including that of experiencing the state of dying, itself. I do not believe it is something to fear. If it consists of seeing loved one’s great – if not, perhaps there is another connection, where nothing has ever truly been separated from all that exists. There is so much more to life then we know or can fathom at this moment in time, and death itself may be nothing more than an illusion; something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature.
None of us can know for sure what happens to individuals after we die, and the Holy Scriptures are not really addressing that, their focus is more the societal
However my speculations aren’t too dissimilar from yours - I think along the lines of a dimensional, timeless, boundless, that we see/perceive even now in glimpses
The issue, the only issue is whether the Bible teaches an intermediate state of life after death and before resurrection. It does. The book of Revelation clearly shows people in heaven. Paul clearly says that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord.
Luke 16 Hades, rich man and Lazarus go to hades waiting place, not actual heaven and hell yet, but they are separated, Abraham's bosom is where Lazarus went, he was carried by angles and rich man was in torment and he could actually speak to Abraham about warning his family members of his torment but death doesn't let anyone communicate with the living world apparently.
1 cor. 15:52 says when Jesus returns the dead will be raised, if the dead was already in heaven then that wouldn't make sense, why raise someone who is in heaven? Its false to say they are already there from that verse and from luke 16 where we see where saved and lost awaiting the judgement day. Didn't Christ say somewhere that nobody has yet ascended into heaven? John 3:13
1 Thess. 4:16 dead in Christ be raised first then the living will go up.
You can't be putting people in heaven back down in a physical grave just to raise them again. Absurdity through and through.
What Paul said about absent from body is to be with the Lord, that must fit somehow with the obvious fact that Hades is real, its the waiting place with saints or sinners, to be with the Lord must mean that in Abrahams bosom implied by that phrase someway, we don't have very much info about it. But it cannot contradict the known facts the Bible does tell us.
Luke 16 Hades, rich man and Lazarus go to hades waiting place, not actual heaven and hell yet, but they are separated, Abraham's bosom is where Lazarus went, he was carried by angles and rich man was in torment and he could actually speak to Abraham about warning his family members of his torment but death doesn't let anyone communicate with the living world apparently.
1 cor. 15:52 says when Jesus returns the dead will be raised, if the dead was already in heaven then that wouldn't make sense, why raise someone who is in heaven? Its false to say they are already there from that verse and from luke 16 where we see where saved and lost awaiting the judgement day. Didn't Christ say somewhere that nobody has yet ascended into heaven? John 3:13
1 Thess. 4:16 dead in Christ be raised first then the living will go up.
You can't be putting people in heaven back down in a physical grave just to raise them again. Absurdity through and through.
What Paul said about absent from body is to be with the Lord, that must fit somehow with the obvious fact that Hades is real, its the waiting place with saints or sinners, to be with the Lord must mean that in Abrahams bosom implied by that phrase someway, we don't have very much info about it. But it cannot contradict the known facts the Bible does tell us.
Before the cross, the dead went to Sheol/Hades. After the cross all believers go to heaven. Resurrection is something that occurs after the intermediate state. Paul stated straight out that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. That's straight forward. Jesus is not in the grave. He is in heaven.
At the resurrection, those who are in heaven will be reunited with their bodies which will be raised in an immortal and incorruptible form.
The book of Revelation, chapter 20 speaks of those in heaven who are about to be resurrected. These are the same people shown in Revelation chapters 6 and 7.
1 Corinthians 15:52 does speak of the dead being raised. What you fail to understand is that while the body goes into the grave or is otherwise disposed of, the immaterial part of man, the soul goes into the presence of God in heaven and will at some point in the future be reunited with the body which will be raised in an incorruptible and immortal form.
Before the cross, the dead went to Sheol/Hades. After the cross all believers go to heaven. Resurrection is something that occurs after the intermediate state. Paul stated straight out that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. That's straight forward. Jesus is not in the grave. He is in heaven.
At the resurrection, those who are in heaven will be reunited with their bodies which will be raised in an immortal and incorruptible form.
The book of Revelation, chapter 20 speaks of those in heaven who are about to be resurrected. These are the same people shown in Revelation chapters 6 and 7.
1 Corinthians 15:52 does speak of the dead being raised. What you fail to understand is that while the body goes into the grave or is otherwise disposed of, the immaterial part of man, the soul goes into the presence of God in heaven and will at some point in the future be reunited with the body which will be raised in an incorruptible and immortal form.
Yep, I believe it is important to get the sequence, timing correct then we can go on to what is happening on a global scale pertaining to “our” times, days, regions Which are not Gods times, days, etc - the point of the kingdom has always been about the same everlasting/perpetual one that was prophecied at the beginning
However we are told that there are different administrations, the different times, days, that each region has, there is overlapping
Before the cross, the dead went to Sheol/Hades. After the cross all believers go to heaven. Resurrection is something that occurs after the intermediate state. Paul stated straight out that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. That's straightforward. Jesus is not in the grave. He is in heaven.
This is consistent with my views.
Quote:
At the resurrection, those who are in heaven will be reunited with their bodies which will be raised in an immortal and incorruptible form.
This predicts beyond death and rebirth as Spirit so is beyond my current understanding. I consider it unlikely that we would regress from Spirit to any kind of physical being.
This is consistent with my views. This predicts beyond death and rebirth as Spirit so is beyond my current understanding. I consider it unlikely that we would regress from Spirit to any kind of physical being.
No regression.... that is what you think people are speaking of but they are not
There is a conforming of the physical to that of the Spirit
No regression.... that is what you think people are speaking of but they are not
There is a conforming of the physical to that of the Spirit
I would consider it a regression, Meerkat.
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