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Before the cross, the dead went to Sheol/Hades. After the cross all believers go to heaven. Resurrection is something that occurs after the intermediate state. Paul stated straight out that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. That's straight forward. Jesus is not in the grave. He is in heaven.
At the resurrection, those who are in heaven will be reunited with their bodies which will be raised in an immortal and incorruptible form.
The book of Revelation, chapter 20 speaks of those in heaven who are about to be resurrected. These are the same people shown in Revelation chapters 6 and 7.
1 Corinthians 15:52 does speak of the dead being raised. What you fail to understand is that while the body goes into the grave or is otherwise disposed of, the immaterial part of man, the soul goes into the presence of God in heaven and will at some point in the future be reunited with the body which will be raised in an incorruptible and immortal form.
Below are yet again scriptures that have thus far been ignored. Please address, Michael, Katz ...anyone.
John 5:28; Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice.
1 Corinthians 15: 51-55; Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/i]
[u]55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Philippians 3:20-21: For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
2 Timothy 4:8; “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
I consider it unlikely that we would regress from Spirit to any kind of physical being.
That's because anything physical is negative to you. I see the reunion of a perfect, immortal body with my spirit as being the greatest thing that could possibly happen.
Then Michael should spend more time interpreting - or RE-interpreting - those scriptures to educate me into his belief rather than aiming his frustration and hostility at me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
You sure are a whiner. Anyone who disagrees with you is frustrated and hostile toward you. It's as though you want to feel like people are being hostile to you so you can feel like a martyr.
Michael, Michael, Michael ..."I" have never in this thread given my opinions. "I" don't have any opinions on death because "I" have not experienced it. Nor have you or anyone one else participating on this thread experienced death. Therefore, 'opinions' - yours or mine - given on this particular topic that pertain to something that we cannot possibly know about are worthless. Understand?
SO - and please bear with me since I tend to lose you - WITH that fact in mind, the fact that none of us have died and returned to speak of our experience, "I" have merely presented SCRIPTURE that just might shed some light on the question you - or your video - asked. You see, it's not "I" but rather scripture that you can choose to agree with or to disagree with.
Understand?
Good man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
I'm not exactly stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Yes you are. Arrogance makes people stupid.
Good one! ...albeit rather juvenile
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
. . .and those scriptures speak quite clearly to me without any extra man-made interpretations thrown into the mix.
I consider it unlikely that we would regress from Spirit to any kind of physical being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
That's because anything physical is negative to you. I see the reunion of a perfect, immortal body with my spirit as being the greatest thing that could possibly happen.
Yes, the breath (spirit) reunited with the body - a physical or spiritual body I don't know - appears to be scripturally correct. However, also according to the scriptures that I've presented several times that have so far been ignored, the 'immortal body' will not be realized until the resurrection, i.e. the time Jesus returns to 'awake' the dead from their 'sleep'.
If I just gave something that appears to be my opinion only that does not align with scripture then please tell me.
[color="Navy"]Michael, Michael, Michael ..."I" have never in this thread given my opinions. "I" don't have any opinions on death because "I" have not experienced it. Nor have you or anyone one else participating on this thread experienced death. Therefore, 'opinions' - yours or mine - given on this particular topic that pertain to something that we cannot possibly know about are worthless. Understand?
SO - and please bear with me since I tend to lose you - WITH that fact in mind, the fact that none of us have died and returned to speak of our experience, "I" have merely presented SCRIPTURE that just might shed some light on the question you - or your video - asked. You see, it's not "I" but rather scripture that you can choose to agree with or to disagree with.
You aren't agreeing with scripture. You are misinterpreting the scripture which you think supports your argument.
Yes, the breath (spirit) reunited with the body - a physical or spiritual body I don't know - appears to be scripturally correct. However, also according to the scriptures that I've presented several times that have so far been ignored, the 'immortal body' will not be realized until the resurrection, i.e. the time Jesus returns to 'awake' the dead from their 'sleep'.
If I just gave something that appears to be my opinion only that does not align with scripture then please tell me.
i refer you to 1 Cor 2. For natural types explanation is dead = corpses, resurrection of physical bodies; for spiritual type resurrection is when natural type transform into spiritual type - enlightenment. Similar in
Matthew 13 - real explanation vs parable.
"Jesus returns to 'awake' the dead from their 'sleep'."
Do you know what is nature of 'sleep' process?
Michael, Michael, Michael ..."I" have never in this thread given my opinions. "I" don't have any opinions on death because "I" have not experienced it. Nor have you or anyone one else participating on this thread experienced death. Therefore, 'opinions' - yours or mine - given on this particular topic that pertain to something that we cannot possibly know about are worthless. Understand?
SO - and please bear with me since I tend to lose you - WITH that fact in mind, the fact that none of us have died and returned to speak of our experience, "I" have merely presented SCRIPTURE that just might shed some light on the question you - or your video - asked. You see, it's not "I" but rather scripture that you can choose to agree with or to disagree with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
You aren't agreeing with scripture. You are misinterpreting the scripture which you think supports your argument.
How the heck can I be misinterpreting scriptures that CLEARLY state what they state?? Are you blind? "I" don't have an argument with your definition of the state of the dead ...THE SCRIPTURES DO! I don't know if the afterlife happens to be some eternal Disney-themed fun park, although that WOULD be nice to look forward to. Just admit that you're afraid to touch those scriptures because, if you do, then they will throw the cherished, though erroneous, belief of your church denomination into disrepute. Just admit that it's THIS - and NOT me - that has you in such a kerfuffle and be done with it.
One more time ..."I" don't particularly have an opinion. "I" don't particularly agree or disagree. "I" didn't write the scriptures. "I" am just presenting said scriptures. Am "I" beginning to regret that I ever participated in this thread since I've become the scapegoat for your immature rants? Well, sort of but not entirely. One's defense of the doctrine of their church denomination is something that I would have expected but I didn't expect downright hostility toward me personally.
i refer you to 1 Cor 2. For natural types explanation is dead = corpses, resurrection of physical bodies; for spiritual type resurrection is when natural type transform into spiritual type - enlightenment. Similar in
Matthew 13 - real explanation vs parable.
"Jesus returns to 'awake' the dead from their 'sleep'."
Do you know what is nature of 'sleep' process?
Too complicated for me. Let's just stick to a simple reading of scripture. The dead are dead. Dead means dead, i.e. not alive, in ANY definition of the word. 'Resurrection' is a biblical term that refers to the dead being made alive again at the end of time and not before. I couldn't attempt to replicate this 'dead to alive' procedure myself but this IS what we're told God can do so I have to take its word for it. And, the Bible IS touted as the 'go to book' for the simple truth ...no degree in theology required.
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toward me personally. 
