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Well, I'm simply a reader of the Bible; however, the Bible states that the dead - both the saved and the lost - go to the grave or wherever location their corpse is laid. Then we are told that, on the resurrection morning, the dead IN CHRIST - i.e. 'the saved' - will rise first. Here is a scripture - from PAUL, no less - that tells us this:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18;
15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
We have to go elsewhere in scripture to find out what happens to the dead that are 'lost'. As it is, I get into enough strife by presenting the pesky scriptures that address the thread title so I'll just stick with 'the righteous dead' for now.
“According to his own account, while experimenting with sleep-learning in 1958 Monroe experienced an unusual phenomenon, which he described as sensations of paralysis and vibration accompanied by a bright light that appeared to be shining on him from a shallow angle. Monroe went on to say that this occurred another nine times over the next six weeks, culminating in his first out-of-body experience (OBE). Monroe recorded his account in his 1971 book Journeys Out of the Body and went on to become a prominent researcher in the field of human consciousness. Monroe later authored two more books on his experiments with OBE, Far Journeys (1985) and Ultimate Journey (1994). Out of body experience is akin to astral projection, although it may or may not involve that.”
He also founded the Monroe Institute, where he and other scientists used instruments to record brainwaves during his "journeys." They later invented a means (Hemi-Sync) to induce those subsonic waves using heterodyning frequencies.
What is it like "on the other side"?
Having no mass, nor dimensions, unlimited by sequential time, such an existence is a perpetual eternal "now."
How the heck can I be misinterpreting scriptures that CLEARLY state what they state?? Are you blind? "I" don't have an argument with your definition of the state of the dead ...THE SCRIPTURES DO! I don't know if the afterlife happens to be some eternal Disney-themed fun park, although that WOULD be nice to look forward to. Just admit that you're afraid to touch those scriptures because, if you do, then they will throw the cherished, though erroneous, belief of your church denomination into disrepute. Just admit that it's THIS - and NOT me - that has you in such a kerfuffle and be done with it.
One more time ..."I" don't particularly have an opinion. "I" don't particularly agree or disagree. "I" didn't write the scriptures. "I" am just presenting said scriptures. Am "I" beginning to regret that I ever participated in this thread since I've become the scapegoat for your immature rants? Well, sort of but not entirely. One's defense of the doctrine of their church denomination is something that I would have expected but I didn't expect downright hostility toward me personally.
You ignore the places in the Bible that refute you. Paul's statement that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord is quite clear. John's vision in which he see people-Tribulational martyrs in heaven shows that the believer goes to heaven when he dies. Peter's statement in 2 Peter regarding his approaching death in which he speaks of his departure from his earthly tent-his body, of laying it aside in 2 Peter 1:13-15 speaks to the fact that there is an immaterial part of man that continues to exist after physical death. Matthew 10:28 makes a distinction between the soul and the body and shows that the soul does not cease to exist when the body dies. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12 both make a distinction between the body, the soul, and the spirit.
At Jesus' transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus and were seen by Peter, James and John. Did Jesus wake them up, or if their souls had ceased to exist when they died did Jesus bring their souls back into existence for the transfiguration event and then send them back into non-existence afterwards? No! Moses and Elijah continued to exist after they died physically and were in paradise.
The body goes into the grave, but for the believer the soul and spirit enter into the presence of the Lord after physical death.
It is because of these things just stated that mainstream Christianity teaches that the believer goes to heaven when he dies and that after that intermediate state will be resurrected in a physical body of immortality and incorruptibility.
Well, I'm simply a reader of the Bible; however, the Bible states that the dead - both the saved and the lost - go to the grave or wherever location their corpse is laid. Then we are told that, on the resurrection morning, the dead IN CHRIST - i.e. 'the saved' - will rise first. Here is a scripture - from PAUL, no less - that tells us this:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18;
15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
We have to go elsewhere in scripture to find out what happens to the dead that are 'lost'. As it is, I get into enough strife by presenting the pesky scriptures that address the thread title so I'll just stick with 'the righteous dead' for now.
You said...go to the grave or wherever location their corpse is laid.
Just thinking out loud here...say someone is cremated and they sprinkle the ashes in a whole bunch of places. Does the soul go to where the biggest ash is or what?
I could have sworn Jesus said to the thief on the cross he'd be with him in paradise THAT very same day, not a future event or that he would be put into a freezer.
And please, don't even mention me about how they misplaced the comma either. Jesus did NOT say Today, I say onto you.....He never talked that way. He said Today you will be with me in paradise....PERIOD.
[color="Navy"]Yes, the breath (spirit) reunited with the body - a physical or spiritual body I don't know - appears to be scripturally correct.
I believe it will be a physical body, because Jesus' resurrected body was physical.
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However, also according to the scriptures that I've presented several times that have so far been ignored, the 'immortal body' will not be realized until the resurrection, i.e. the time Jesus returns to 'awake' the dead from their 'sleep'.
I agree that the "immortal body" will not be realized until the resurrection, i.e. the time the spirit returns to the body to give it new, everlasting life.
You said...go to the grave or wherever location their corpse is laid.
Just thinking out loud here...say someone is cremated and they sprinkle the ashes in a whole bunch of places. Does the soul go to where the biggest ash is or what?
I could have sworn Jesus said to the thief on the cross he'd be with him in paradise THAT very same day, not a future event or that he would be put into a freezer.
And please, don't even mention me about how they misplaced the comma either. Jesus did NOT say Today, I say onto you.....He never talked that way. He said Today you will be with me in paradise....PERIOD.
Yes. It would have been redundant for Jesus to have said, ''I say to you today.'' Of course he was saying it to him 'today.' And nowhere else in any of Jesus' 'I say to you' statements does he include the word 'today.' He was telling the criminal that he would be with him that very day.
Well, I'm simply a reader of the Bible; however, the Bible states that the dead - both the saved and the lost - go to the grave or wherever location their corpse is laid. Then we are told that, on the resurrection morning, the dead IN CHRIST - i.e. 'the saved' - will rise first. Here is a scripture - from PAUL, no less - that tells us this:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18;
15According to the LORD's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the LORD, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
We have to go elsewhere in scripture to find out what happens to the dead that are 'lost'. As it is, I get into enough strife by presenting the pesky scriptures that address the thread title so I'll just stick with 'the righteous dead' for now.
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Originally Posted by Zero 7
You said...go to the grave or wherever location their corpse is laid.
Yes, I was thinking ahead to fend off others who may say that not everyone is buried, that some are laid in a sepulcher, that some are lost at sea, that some are never found, that some are cremated, that some are blown to smithereens, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7
Just thinking out loud here...say someone is cremated and they sprinkle the ashes in a whole bunch of places. Does the soul go to where the biggest ash is or what?
As mentioned above, some are blown to smithereens. I would guess that the Almighty who Genesis tells us created the first person from the dust of the ground has the same ability to suitably work everything out so no need for concern. Then again, perhaps God has everyone's life on virtual disc and just reverses the disc to a previous point in time when the person was intact.
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Originally Posted by Zero 7
I could have sworn Jesus said to the thief on the cross he'd be with him in paradise THAT very same day, not a future event or that he would be put into a freezer.
Well, the first question I would ask is ...who was it who was there on the scene with pen and pad taking notes - AND was also within ear-shot to hear voices clearly - while Jesus hung on the cross? I'm assuming that you're a smart guy, Zero. Isn't that a pertinent question you would also ask? I'll probably be torn apart in verbal shreds for saying this but I believe this part of the story to be symbolic. It represents Jesus in the middle, one person on the left who believed in Jesus, and one person on the right who did not believe in Jesus. Ring any bells?
That said, Paradise is synonymous with Heaven. Jesus did nor ascend to Heaven that day. Three days later He had still not ascended to Heaven (John 20:17). So 'today' is out of the question. Moreover, those who make the claim that Jesus was elsewhere during the three days in the tomb and was therefore fully conscious during that period are denying that Jesus actually died. If true, this would throw the entire Gospel into disrepute. The entire belief of Christianity HINGES on the fact that Jesus DID actually DIE and three days later rose FROM the dead.
HOWEVER, to play the devil's advocate and go along with the notion that the thief DID go to Heaven that same day ...so what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7
And please, don't even mention me about how they misplaced the comma either. Jesus did NOT say Today, I say onto you.....He never talked that way. He said Today you will be with me in paradise....PERIOD.
Why on earth would you think that I'd have to resort to that old chestnut? There are plenty of other scriptures that explain to us quite plainly about the state of the dead without my having to use that one. How come you guys keep taking odd scriptures willy-nilly in attempts to make them discredit and contradict ALREADY ESTABLISHED scriptures (about 66 of them!) found elsewhere?
However, since YOU brought up the 'comma' thing ...you ARE aware, are you not, that punctuation was not used in the early manuscripts of scripture? You were not? Well, you are aware now. Punctuation was added much later. I'll also add that punctuation is NOT considered to be 'divine' or 'God-breathed'.
One more thing, you are correct that Jesus never talked that way. That's because Jesus didn't speak in English. It's believed that Jesus and his disciples spoke in Aramaic, possibly with a Galilean accent. SO, whichever way you wish to decipher it, Jesus never said 'Today you will be with me in paradise."
Yes. It would have been redundant for Jesus to have said, ''I say to you today.'' Of course he was saying it to him 'today.' And nowhere else in any of Jesus' 'I say to you' statements does he include the word 'today.' He was telling the criminal that he would be with him that very day.
I don't believe he was referencing that day, as they were yet to go to the grave. And, as you know (according to the Scriptures), Jesus was raised from the dead, not some fictional hellhole having two compartments or holding tanks, one for the wicked and another for the righteous. That is just nonsense, and a fabrication of man's imagination (mythologies).
I don't believe he was referencing that day, as they were yet to go to the grave. And, as you know (according to the Scriptures), Jesus was raised from the dead, not some fictional hellhole having two compartments or holding tanks, one for the wicked and another for the righteous. That is just utter nonsense, and a fabrication of man's imagination (mythologies).
The two criminals who were crucified with Jesus died that same day. The Roman soldiers broke their legs to speed up their deaths -John 19:30-32 in order to placate the Jews by not allowing the criminals to remain on a cross during the Sabbath.
Your unbelief regarding sheol/hades is your unbelief and doesn't change reality.
Yes. It would have been redundant for Jesus to have said, ''I say to you today.'' Of course he was saying it to him 'today.' And nowhere else in any of Jesus' 'I say to you' statements does he include the word 'today.' He was telling the criminal that he would be with him that very day.
Spot on.
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toward me personally. 
Spot on.
